F650 History, Differences and Purchasing FAQ

compiled & edited by Kristian #562
Updated by Scott #1244
Please read the Disclaimer before attempting any work in this FAQ.
Last Updated: 19 March 2007, by Winter #1935

• Introduction
• History and Development of the F650
  • Historical Overview
    • In the Beginning
    • F650 Classic (Funduro) and ST
    • Single Spark GS, Dakar and CS
    • Dual Spark GS, Dakar and CS
    • Future, Speculation and Rumors (2007-on?)
  • Other Sources for Classic F and GS Bike History
  • Who Designed the F650?
    • F650 Classic Design
    • F650 GS/Dakar Design
• Model Specs and Differences
  • Model Specs Table
  • Descriptive Changes
    • Differences between the Classic F and the Classic ST
    • What about the low power version 25kW as opposed to the 37kW normal version?
    • Differences between the Classic F and the F650GS/Dakar
    • 650GS Dakar 2001 or 2002 or 2003 or 2004
  • Other Rotax 650 Bikes
  • What about Sidecars?
  • What about Trailers?
  • Do any Police Forces or Armies use them?
• Comparisons, Reviews and Opinions
  • Opinions on the F650 GS vs. F650 GS/Dakar
  • Opinions on the Classic vs. the GS/Dakar
  • F650 vs. BMW 1150R
  • F650 vs. BMW 1150GS (or 1100GS)
  • F650GS VS BMW K75
  • F650 vs. BMW 1100RT
  • F650 vs. Honda Transalps
  • F650 vs. Kawasaki KLR
  • KLR vs. KTM vs. Dakar
  • URAL Anyone?
  • F650 vs. Triumph Tiger
  • F650 vs. Honda XR650
  • Other Website Reviews
  • Opinions for Tall Riders
• Purchasing
  • Buying an F650 - What to watch out for
  • Importing into the US (from Canada / Germany)
  • Selling an F650
  • Evaluating a Classic - Feedback
  • Evaluating an F650GS or GS/Dakar - Some Opinions
  • Where can I buy a Used One?

Other General FAQs about the F650:

• Beginners Guide to the FAQs
• Riding Tips FAQ
• Break-inFAQ.htm
• CleaningFAQ.htm

Other FAQs about F650 aftermarket options / modifications:

• Is there any way to convert the GS/Dakar to a Supermono/SuperMoto
• Is there any way to convert the GS/GSA to a Dakar?
• Classic Performance Modifications FAQ
• GS Performance Mods FAQ
• High Mileage FAQ

So you want to buy an F650 and do not know which bike is for you? Or you want to know the differences between the bikes? This FAQ contains information about the differences between the bikes, and what to lookout for when you purchase the bike. A lot of the specific differences between the bikes are listed in the table at the top of this FAQ. However below that you can find descriptions of the changes.

Thanks to Richard #230

Here is a little F650 history lore for you from page 50-51 of the November issue of Motorcyclist magazine: The designer of the "Classic" F650 model was Martin Logmore, who is now the Chief Designer for Aprilia and has just redesigned the Aprilia Mille. He is a 45-year old Scot, born in Edinburgh and a 1982 graduate of London's Royal College of Art. He first worked for Ford, then moved to Britain's leading design house, IAD in Worthing. He then worked for Volvo and GM in California. Eventually, Longmore ended up in Munich working for BMW's Motorcycle Design Group, while David Robb was still in the car division. BMW had a contest between the bike and car design teams to design their new car and Longmore, in the bike division, won the contest with the design of the original BMW Z3 - apparently pissing off the designers in the auto division.

His next creation for BMW was the F650 Funduro, which he designed and styled personally, and whose creation in the mid-1990s first bought him into contact with Aprilia, who manufactured the bike for BMW. In 1993, Longmore moved to Audi and designed the TT Coupe. He was recruited by Aprilia in 1997 and has been working for them as an outside consultant, while he lives and works in Munich. Something for the History section of the FAQ.

by Flash #412 et al., October '01, updated by Winter #1935 October 2006

F650 Classic (Funduro) and ST

In the beginning, Rotax built the motors for Aprilia and BMW. Aprilia built the bikes for both. Rotax is Austrian and Aprilia is Italian. The motors are not identical, though they do share many parts. The BMW head is four valve, dual plugged and the Aprilia is five valve, single spark plug. Besides the cams themselves being different, cam timing is different, too. The Pegaso makes more horsepower, with a peakier curve than the BMW which has a flatter horsepower curve and most of the torque delivered over a much wider rpm range.

1994 was the first model year for the BMW F650 Funduro in Europe. The Funduro remained unchanged until 1997. There was also the ST (sport touring). (I forget the model years). The main differences between the Funduro and ST are fairing shape and size of the front wheel. The motor, frame, ass-end of the bike and so forth are all identical. More information on the differences between the F and the ST are discussed below.

In 1997, the bike was certified for the USA. This changed the Euro-spec bikes, too. This model remained unchanged to the end of its run in 2000. The fairing and (black plastic) engine covers for '97 on have a different shape. The windshield is different, too. I believe the tank covers are identical, which would mean you could swap fairings (with engine covers & windshield) between early and late versions. The early version had bug-eye turn-signals, built into the fairing. The late version has indicators on stalks which bolt to the fairing.

The early version has a self-returning Sidestand and the late version has an (easily defeated) ignition cut-out switch. The early version had a removable gas cap. The late version has a hinged gas cap. The early version has a temperature gauge on the left side. The late version has a clock in that hole. The idiot lights are different, to match the lack of temp gauge. (Fitting a temp gauge instead of an idiot light means changing the sender, too.) The Euro version has a light switch on the right control (missing on the later version) allowing OFF, ON, and PARK.

There are a whole bunch of parts identical between the Funduro and the Pegaso, too many to list here. (I don't even know what-all.) But if you put them side by side, you'll see lots of IDENTICAL stuff as well as lots of stuff that has the identical form and function, which will clearly FIT. I am told that the Aprilia has ball bearings for crank mains and BMW uses plain bearings. But this has not been verified, yet.

The ST model was only available in the US in '97 and '98. NOT available in 99. So if its a '99 F650 it isn't a ST (US Only).

Single Spark GS, Dakar and CS

For the 2001 model year, starting manufacture in mid-late 2000, BMW took the bike in-house. They revamped the design of the bike, almost entirely. The new bikes benefit from fuel injection and the gas tank residing under the seat, with a faux tank cover... someone who owns one can say what. ABS became available. The motor now has four valves and one spark plug. There is a GS and Dakar models which are very closely aligned. The Dakar has a bigger front wheel and higher seat height. Graphics differ.

BMW had a recall on the gas tanks of the early F.I. models. BMW had a recall on a rear brake strut of pre (date?) units. And many feel that BMW SHOULD have a recall on the fuel injection system. (Others are quite happy.) Surging and stalling are the main complaints about the F.I. with various fixes available, including an updated map, an updated Software installation version, replacing the injector nozzle with one from the R1150, an updated pressure regulator and someone found drilling holes in the Airbox snorkels helped. (Why BMW can't FIX the thing has many people stymied.) Common lore is that when threatened with litigation, BMW has bought back F.I. bikes which can not be civilized, under non-disclosure agreements. Note that the bikes BMW gave the press for the US introduction were NOT USA-spec bikes, but Canadian.

In the US "2000" models are special editions to use up the last of the old frames and have marks like FL. These differ only in bodywork details to the Funduro and ST. 2001 saw the first of the FI models. GS and the new CS are the direct replacements for the Funduro and ST respectively, but have more mechanical differences. A Dakar is a GS with additional off road refinements (like a 21 front wheel). All are great bikes.

Dual Spark GS, Dakar and CS

In 2004 BMW released a dual spark version of the GS, Dakar and CS. A new faster F.I. computer was added, and a few other minor cosmetic changes such as the dash, rear tail "glove compartment" and adjustable clutch lever. The dual spark and revamped F.I. computer seemed to deal with many of the Surging and Stalling problems with the earlier single spark models. It also improved fuel consumption, and reduced emissions, and had an adjustable clutch lever.

The G650X Models

In October 2006, BMW released the G650X series of bikes. Although these models are not "real" F650s bikes, they are very similar in many ways (that we know of right now). They use the same basic engine (the Rotax 654), with 1hp more (at 53hp), and a smaller alternator (280Watts) compared to larger dual spark Fuel injected models. A smaller 9.5L tank (compared to the 17.3L tank on GS/Dakar models) with 2.0L reserver, and a much lighter weight of 156kg (ready to ride, compared to ~192kg of the GS/Dakar models). More information to come when we have it...

Future, Speculation and Rumors (2007-on?)

Although unclear on release dates (including when or if certain models will be available in the US) speculation includes:

• An F800GS - based on the Rotax 800cc parallel twin (there are currently no plans for the Chain Gang FAQs to support this model)
• An F650 HP - based on the same Rotax 654 engine, however in a lightweight / similar styling to the BMW HP2
• A 450cc single - probably based on a Rotax 450cc single (note: Cam-am/BRP/Rotax is also planning some new high performance 450cc single ATV)

• There is also some more information on the history of the F on Adrian Jowett's Web page.
• http://www.bmwmotorrad.co.za/motorcycles/f_series/f650/f650_strada.html F650 vs. F650 ST
• http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcbmw/97f650.html The F650 Specs - not GS
• http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcbmw/97f650st.html F650ST Specs with Differences to F650
• For Photos of the Different 650's see Trevor's Website see http://www.bmwf650.co.uk
• One of the best places to find BMW model info is BMW of Santa Cruz. e.g. The 1999 Model: http://www.bmwscruz.com/BMW/1999/index.html
• There's a pretty good pictorial history of BMWs, including the F650, at this website, too. http://www2.tower.org/museum/index.html. Just click on BMW. (Norm#874)
• Some Basic History http://home.wanadoo.nl/menk/_f650/funduro_basics_eng.html#start
• German Forum: http://www.f22.parsimony.net/forum39715/
• British Forum: http://www.trevorgeorge.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/index.htm
• French & English http://www.f650.info/
• Long Term Test http://www.cmgonline.com/articles/CMG02/bikes/BMW/F650GS_Dakar/index.html
• Good Technical Details. http://www.bmwmotorrad.co.za/bikes/workshop/davidChall.asp

This was a Topic of Some Debate.

F650 Classic Design

• From http://home.wanadoo.nl/menk/_f650/funduro_basics_eng.html "The F650 was designed by the Englishman Martin Longmore and got several designer prizes." That is somewhat validated at http://www.bmwmotorrad.co.za/motorcycles/f_series/f650/f650_strada.html where it says, "Freelance English designer, Martin Longmore, provided styling to clearly define the bike as a BMW, and his rounded, organic shape certainly distinguishes the F650 from the motocrosser appearance of its rivals." Now, these aren't specifically about the GS and I suppose that there's a good chance that someone else deserves credit for the GS model much like Robb takes credit for the CS but the GS is closer to the basic design that then CS. Gerry #951
• Martin Longmore is again validated by http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcbmw/97f650.html which says "For BMW to use an Austrian engine in a bike built in Italy and still have it look and feel like a BMW required careful design planning. Various configurations were experimented with before the final nod was given to a draft by freelance stylist Martin Longmore."

F650 GS/Dakar Design

• David Robb has been with BMW for years as chief designer and is behind the design of every current model BMW sells. You can mail my doughnut now. Here's the response from BMW RA. SScratch '01 Dakar Nashville

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Robert Hellman
  To: BMWRA
  Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 2:54 PM
  Subject: Re: Settle a bet?
  
  You are right.
  
  ROTL
  
  ----------
  From: "BMWRA"
  To: "Robert Hellman"
  Subject: Fw: Settle a bet?
  Date: Thu, Sep 5, 2002, 10:36 AM
  
  RE: Q from member # 25526 below
  
  FWD to Robert Hellman, OTL Editor, chefrad@erols.com
  
  From
  Linda Gotcher
  Interim Association Administrator while Ed Jorgensen is on Active Duty (U.S. Army)
  PO Box 120430
  West Melbourne, FL 32912-0430
  Phone/Fax: 321-984-7800
  E-Mail: bmwra@cfl.rr.com
  Webpage: www.bmwra.org
  
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Steve Stratz
  To: bmwra@cfl.rr.com
  Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 11:08 AM
  Subject: Settle a bet?
  
  Could you possibly settle a bet as to the designer of the current F650GS & 
  Dakar models? I say David Robb is the chief designer of ALL current BMW 
  models, whereas a friend says that although he doesn't know who designed the 
  GS, it was not Robb or anyone else at BMW. I think he's been reading too much 
  American Iron instead of OTL.
  BTW, thanks for printing my rant on new BMW designs. It was quite unexpected. 
  Steve Stratz
  

• SO That's THAT.

Footnotes

1. When BMW released the dual spark FI models in the US, the first model was the 2005 - despite the bike being released in 2004. This was probably a marketing ploy - buying next years model is better right?
2. Fuel Grade - BMW typically specifies Premium Unleaded fuel with higher octane ratings. However most F650 riders experience surging and stalling problems and find Regular Unleaded is more suitable.
3. Fuel Reserve - some sources suggest a reserve of 4.5L
4. Fuel Capacity (US models) - US models contain a charcol canister (for emmisions) which takes up some of the fuel tank space.
5. Fuel Consumption - based on BMW figures, some sources state 3.4L/100kms and 4.5L/100kms for 90km/h and 120km/h respectively.
6. Coolant - Coolant and Antifreeze are two different things. Have a look in the FAQs for the non-nitrate AND non-silicate coolant.
7. F650 Seat Height - For '97 models onwards, the seat height for the F650 is specified as 810mm / 31.9in
8. Fuel Capacity - Due to the emmissions control cannister on US models, these bikes have 15.5L tanks. See the GS Fuel Tank FAQ

by Mason #631

There's a very comprehensive review of both bikes at BMW Zambia. This FAQ only notes the Funduro/Strada differences: Here's the source, BMW Zambia and it jives with what I can see on my ST.

• Sold right alongside BMW's new dual-purpose single will be its fraternal twin, the F650 Street. As the name implies, this is a more street-oriented version of the F650.
• Both bikes share spoke wheels, but the ST uses an 18-inch front rim, one inch smaller than the F650. The result is quicker steering and a lower seat height for the ST.
• Tires are chosen purely for road work, with a set of Metzeler street tires replacing the F650's Enduro rubber.
• Other differences include a lower windscreen on the ST, designed to function more effectively at higher speeds (although the F650's taller screen will bolt right on the ST).
• The ST's handlebars are narrower, allowing a more tucked-in position for freeway riding while the F650's wider bars allow more leverage off-road.
• Front fender design differs between the two bikes as well. A higher unit is fitted to the F650 to provide more clearance for dirt and mud, and side extensions cover the lower fork legs to protect them from stones chips.
• Also offering more protection is the F650's front engine plate which tucks in tighter to protect the engine, while the ST's functions more as an aerodynamic spoiler
• By reducing rear wheel travel from the Funduro's 6.5 to 4.7 on the Strada, BMW significantly reduced the seat height (31.5 on the F650, 30.9 on the F650ST), a very significant consideration for many riders.
• BMW will also be offering a lowering kit comprised of a modified swingarm and shock stop with matching shorter side and Centrestands that will reduce the seat height further to 29.5 for the F650 and 28.9 for the ST
• The two F650s diverge most in the rubber they wear. The Funduro is equipped with a 2.15 x 19 front rim, and 3.00 x 17 rear, and rides on dual-purpose tires. The Strada street bike is fitted with a 2.15 x 18 front hoop shod with a bias-ply rayon Metzeler 100/90 ME33 Lazer, and carries a gumball Metzeler 130/80 MEZ2 radial on a 3.00 x 17 rim out back. The MEZ2 is a marvellous tire, producing both prodigious grip and very clear feedback that allow you to lay the F650 way down in corners with unusual confidence. Because the tire is not a very low profile, it could possibly be a retrofit (with a wider rim) to many older bikes whose riders wish they could benefit from modern radial rubber. If this applies to you, check out the MEZ2
• Minor stylistic differences in the front fenders, lower engine fairings, handlebars and the somewhat curious fact that the Funduro carries a standard windshield, while the Strada does not, are the only other differences besides the front wheel and tires. BMW says the ST was made for commuting, so it doesn't need a windshield. (We disagree, and have ordered one for a long-term test on our ST).
• The instrument dial faces on the ST are black, not white as they are on the standard Funduro. The lower rear mud guard is also different.
• Pre 97 Funduro's had low screens and faired in indicators. Belly pans were black, so was the plastic below the tank. 97-99 Funduro's had tall screens and stalk indicators. Belly pans were black, so was the plastic below the tank. All ST's came with low screens and stalk indicators, but the early ones had no belly pan and the later ones (98?) got colour coded ones. (I am not going to call that bit of plastic a bash plate). Other plastic started black then went silver (98 again?). The only sure fire way to spot an early ST vs. a mid 97 Funduro (with all the mods to screens etc.) is the 18 front wheel and lower suspension.
• Regarding the differences between the original F and the ST, you may be interested to note that the two bikes have different center and side stands. I found this out the hard way - I bought a lowered ST without the stock parts then purchased stock parts from an F owner and had the lowering kit removed. So now the bike is at the original stock height with F (not ST) center and side stands. My turning radius is shot because I drag the center and side stands all over the place in tight curves. Jesse
• They are ALMOST identical. Having owned both a couple of '96 and a couple of >+'97 models, I can say that the later fairing makes the bike slightly easier to work on. All the parts will interchange between the two bikes except for fairing PIECES. You CAN swap the entire fairing (with lowers, radiator cross piece & windscreen) between the bikes if you like. However, the earlier Funduros come with a temp gauge instead of the clock that is in the later ones. This is pretty easy to change if you like. There is a FAQ on the temp gauge. Flash #412

I have a 650F '96 with its HP reduced to 25 kW. Previous owner said that the only thing done was changing the manifold, nothing done in the carbs. The manifold has a 25 kW mark on it. He gave me the original manifold.

• Many reduced-power bikes do so with a carb slide limiter that prevents the carb slide (s) from raising beyond a certain height in the carb bodies. I am not sure how this is handled with FI bikes. Richard #230
• Honda does their limiting this way as well. The manifold doesn't have a big influence at lower rpm, and at the upper ones appears like lower revs to the carburettor. rakaD
• Reducing HP. From the comments on the German site regarding "drosselung" it's a fairly simple change over on the fuel injected models, but there are several things that are changed on the classic F
• On the fuel injected models, the throttle cable is attached in a different slot on the throttle body, thus reducing the ammount by which the throttle can be opened.
• Important: If you have a restricted license, it may be illegal for you to "increase" the power of your bike.

by Eben Fourie, Andy Leeds UK

• The GS faux tank cover as Flash puts it, hides the oil tank (left), the air filter (right) and the battery (centre).
• Different spec tires. Dakar gets either Michelin Sirac or Metzeler Tourance (at least in South Africa).
• Higher windshield and hand protectors standard.
• The seat itself is thicker, and ground clearance is 4cm higher - 210mm suspension travel (front and rear).
• Suspension pre-load has 50 clicks rather than the 20 click of street GS.
• Power ratings The Carbed F650 (old F) is 48 hp at the sprocket, with Dyno tests showing 41 at the rear wheel (Dyno test at 1500 miles). The FI F650 is 50 hp at the sprocket, so probably 43 at the wheel. The Aprilia Pegaso is (I think 55 hp) at least in the brochure. I think the magazines compared book ratings with Dyno test ratings and probably took no account of the RPM either. Given manufacturers quote power and weight from whatever source they like (Honda don't even put oil the engine when the weigh it for the brochure) it is impossible to compare bikes without a test ride. 3 hp or 5 kg makes no difference in the real world.

• 2002 model has lugs on the fork brace for the lower mudguard addition.
• The 2002 model has a different (stronger) mounting in the rear under the little storage cover behind the seat.
• I have had both a 2001 and a 2002 GS. No big differences. 2001 models produced after a certain date [1-1-01?] have the new injector and mapping. Ones made before then can be converted. All 2002 models are correct.
• Probably the biggest difference between the '01 and '02 Dakar models is the availability of ABS on the '02 as an option. It was not available at all on the '01.
• There are no changes at all for 2003 Dakar. The only changes are to the standard GS and that is the colour black has been dropped and another colour as been added don't know what it is yet. KiwiDakar (02)
• Q. Is there some user with GS Dakar model white/black with ABS, or ABS is only option with the latest model, that is only Blue?
  A. Only 2002 (on) GS Dakar has ABS option (i.e. as far as I know ONLY blue/white/red).
• Q. 2002-2003 Changes?
  A. There are new colors. Titan Silver (gray), Bi-color gray/ yellow, Yellow and I guess a blue. Guz.
• 01GS to 03 GS Changes
  1. Different style front fork bridge
  2. Added support plate under rear storage compartment
  3. Front axle spacer changed from aluminum to steel. Raymo #1173, Chicago, 2001 F650GSA
• Dakar has always had a separate rear shock reservoir. In '02 it was moved to a more visible location on the frame on ABS equipped bikes. Maybe all bikes regardless of ABS in '03 has it on frame? The same as most manufacturers BMW always try to have multiple suppliers so brand of tires may change in production at any time. I got Michelin Sirac on my '02 as well.
• 04's Now have the BMW Low Front Fender as OEM.

1. The Bimota BB1 Supermono. Here's Mal's.
   

2. Chrysalis F650. http://www.chrysalisracing.co.uk/ or http://www.iommgp.com/press-releases/chrysalis.shtml.
3. Norton C652SM

4. Bombardier DS 650 ATV http://www.bombardier-atv.com or http://www.rotax.bombardier.com/index_e.htm
5. Bombardier Seadoo
6. Aprilia Pegaso
7. MuZ Skorpion
8. Jawa 650
9. See also http://home.wanadoo.nl/menk/_f650/funduro_ander_eng.html (for the Bimota BB1, Chrysalis F650, and Norton C652SM)
10. John Deere ATVs: Trail Buck 650 / EXT / EX. See http://www.hurontractor.com/news.asp?display=headlines&process=view&pressID=1157 (They use the Rotax 644 4-Tec engine, not the Rotax 654)
11. Bimota Supermono (1995-1996) / Supermono Biposto (1996-1997) ... See http://www.infoservizi.it/bimotaclubitalia/colother.htm ctxspy
    Also check this website: http://www.moto-one.com.au/performance/BB1supermono.html
    

• Here's a couple of links: Dauntless Motors link with F650 sidecar mounts and sidecar available: http://www.dauntlessmotors.com/Mountinghdw_files/bmw_mounts.htm. And a pic of a 1998 F650 with a Sputnik sidecar: http://sidecarmike.com/gallery/gallery.cgi?Category=9 There's some discussion on this one on an IMZ-Ural email list. North"wet" Northwet #1101
• http://www.sidecar.com/. Robert in Texas #959 -- Black '97 Classic
• No sidecar is going to be "bolt on" in the sense that you can just switch as you feel like it, like panniers. The F is as good a choice as any for a rig that will take say 4-6 hours to convert one way or the other as it will run a light chair like the dauntless on standard forks and tyres with no brake on the sidecar. Light connections can be made QD. The time consuming bit is checking the alignment and getting it right and sorting tyre pressures etc. An outfit never goes in a straight line (bike leaned out and toed in). Get these angles wrong and it'll handle like a shopping trolley with mad cow disease. You'd need to check it each time you moved the chair. Even with some sort of setting frame there is room for error. By own outfit took about 6 weeks to get perfect, starting from a set up by one of the UK's top three experts. The F as a tug has limitations. Tyre wear will be excessive as bike tyres don't like running/cornering flat on the tread. The chain is under spec'd already and will wear. The F's 48 hp is a bit low for modern traffic conditions with chair. The off road suspension, bike tyres, power and no brake on the sidecar will limit you to pretty sedate handling. IMHO, keep it light and it'll work up to a point. But, if you can get two bikes, consider something in the 750-1000cc class as a permanent tug. You'll get an airhead or Ural outfit second hand for the cost of a special conversion. If you haven't ridden an outfit before, consider an old airhead or similar to see if you like the way they ride, they are neither bikes nor cars. Find a Ural agent as they will probably give you a demo or test ride. Don't buy a Ural unless you are very confident in the importers rebuild and dealers level of support. My own Ural was junk because the UK importer leave the rebuild to the dealers discretion and the dealer wasn't a specialist in Russian bike archaeology. Take a look at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/ and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sidecarsuk/. My R1100R outfit is the other end of the scale to a light F based outfit, heavy, leading links, car tyres etc. There are pictures under Andy's pics on the sidecarsuk site. This'll cruse at 80-90 with three people and you can still hear the stereo, but it'd take about a week to go back to solo. It easily beat a pair of Fireblades over the Alps because it corners like a go cart (it was raining/snowing, so not a fair race I know, but I had a passenger and three weeks worth of gear, they didn't) Sidecars are brilliant fun and handle like nothing else on earth. Get a dog in the chair and you'll be beating off young women with a stick (if you like that sort of thing!). Sidecarists are an interesting bunch, if a little mad. Go for it! Andy Leeds UK #982
• Yea, Andy has it all, just forgot one thing (for non-GB riders). As sidecar outfits are usually not as common elsewhere as in GB, other road users have a tendency to beckon, honk or flash their lights. Even if you do some, seemingly, hazardous manoeuvre other motorists usually do not get angry, just baffled. If you want to get attention and have real fun, get an outfit, but keep your two wheeled one as well. It takes a lot of work to get a sidecar outfit handle properly, but it is well worth the effort. If you get one with a bit of power, you can outrun most other vehicles safely (on twisties and/ or with bad road conditions). If you get an old, low powered one, I do not think anyone will get annoyed if you go a bit slow. Most people just smile and wonder, when they see a sidecar! My tuned up 1983 Guzzi Le Mans is not exactly new or super powered, but after work today I safely overhauled all the other traffic. We had ice, snow and sleet today and I just had a lot of fun. Haakon#626 (Norway, F650GS)
• In general, I agree with the statements made. Most sidecar rigs (my old one included) would take more time than it's worth to remove it (OTOH, my friend's /2 conversion rig can be removed in about 10 minutes). The more you specialize the bike to optimize the rig's handling (flat profile tires, leading link forks, sidecar brakes, battery/ballast in the chair) the more difficult removal becomes and the worse the bike handles solo. And MOST sidecars are a LOT more work to ride...a crowned road or crosswind and you'll be doing a pull-up with one arm and a push-up with the other...try that for several hours. And spoke wheels are not the best choice for sidecars, as the lateral forces (especially "flying the chair", which you will eventually do intentionally or not) throw them out of alignment/break spokes. Check out the United Sidecar Association. Marty #436-Chicago-97 F650F
• Check out www.sidestrider.com. They're out of California and have some of the neatest sidecars you can imagine. Some really retro hacks, including many made by Watsonian, the oldest manufacturer still around. Well worth a peek. They also used to publish a sidecar magazine, but not sure if it's still extant. I've had communication with the owner, Doug Bingham, and he's a nice guy with enormous enthusiasm for sidecars. Ian C.
• This is an outfit I built after seeing pictures of your Honda/Sputnik. It convinced me that the Sputnik sidecar was what I wanted. It's a 1998 BMW F650/Sputnik. I run a 145 car radial on a Volkswagen rear wheel and there is a 4000 lb rated electric winch set between the bike and sidecar. During the Canadian winters we use studded tires on the front and back. Norm Pottruff.
• http://www.pashnit.com/bikes/sidecar.htm

German Police Okay, so as not to post something 'old' I hope that this is new. I have a hankering for Police motorcycles because as a little kid this was what attracted me to motorcycles (especially BMWs). Some of you may have seen the BMW police bikes that I shot at the Barcelona motorcycle show. As I'm putting together a '02 R1150RT-P now in official German autopolizei trim I was looking on the web for new pics. I was pleasantly surprised to find the following pics of the F650GS being used as a police bike. Enjoy.

Danish Army Davidhpark, #711 http://www.armyvehicles.dk/bmwf650.htm

San Rafael Police The head mechanic, Miguel, is BMW trained and services the F650GS police bikes in town. From http://www.ultimatejourney.com/chap94.html

Royal Barbados Police Hi, I received a lot of information from your site which I found very useful in servicing The Police Fleet of vehicles in Barbados. Shawn Coombes, The Royal Barbados Police Force.

Spanish Police I know they are used in parts of Spain, also in London, UK, if you have any contacts there who might be able to advise on their long-term usefulness. These two images are of Spanish Cops' F650GS bikes. Trevor, #999

Gahanna Police Well, here is my entry this week (maybe I will have another picture to share if the fuzz between here and Vermont tag me Confused) As I am searching for the rubber/brass coupling between the crankcase and air box I headed out to BMW of Columbus who will VOR parts for free, but are on the complete other side of town. Saw one of these in the garage and asked the parts guy who owns it. Guess the Gahanna Police in Columbus are the only department in the state/region that has F650's as police bikes. I headed out to the station yesterday and met up with the motor officer and snapped this picture. matttys

Swiss Army How many can you count? Winter, #1935

French? Police

• I am the proud owner of a 02 Dakar F650. Great bike with great ride. Sits real high which is great for me as I'm 6'4. Handles the twisties with style but does seem high in the turns as I sometimes feel my head will hit the side walls in a canyon. Large amount of travel in the shocks. Makes it nice for rough road conditions pot holes etc. I can run this bike down the freeway at 80mph in comfort and then exit and travel a trail into the back country. The machine feels like it will do it all and I'm confident that if one was to have just one bike this would fit the bill fine. The more I ride this machine the more I like it. The seat is the only problem for me. It forces your forward into the bars. My ass starts to hurt even on the shortest rides. I'm looking into a Sargent seat. For a dual sport bike this is the perfect pick. If I was to ride 99% hi-way I would probably pick the bigger Beemer models. Biggums
• I agree with everything Biggums said, except for hitting my head on the canyon walls; haven't tried that yet. Of course, I'm 6'1'', not 6'4. But in general, I can't imagine a better bike for the pavement/dirt combo kind of riding. As for the seat, the foam up front is thick and soft, so you tend to tip forward, especially while going downhill. Part of the problem is the plastic seat bed itself, which is sloped forward, like the deep drop-off in a swimming pool. I peeled the seat apart and added about 1 inch of high density foam up front (see Seat FAQ). This took about 1-2 hours, and totally fixed the problem. Actually, I did this operation twice, adding 1/2 inch each time. Took less than an hour the second time.
• Don is on a GS and I'm on a Dakar. Each of us would argue that our bikes are perfect for our needs but at 6'2, the Dakar does fit me better than a normal GS. When I went to bed last night, I did notice my left shoulder and both elbows were starting to hurt. I have arthritis or tendonitis in both elbows. I would probably have an easier time on a much lighter bike towed up to the turnoff but that seems like such a waste. The Dakar is perfect for runs of pavement followed by rides offroad. I'm not sure I've come close to answering your question re GS v. Dakar but at least for me, the extra height of the Dakar was one factor in the purchase. Gerry #951
• I also am 5'8 and enjoy the extra height. You only need one foot on the ground when you stop. It always seems the bike is small when you get both feet flat on the ground. KiwiDakar.
• Note the Dakar has a 2.15 inch wheel rim whereas the GS's is a 2.5 inch rim, thus the GS Tyre is not only smaller it is wider, more like a Supermono.

Kristian#562 HK ex'96F, '00 GS

I know Art has both Bikes, and I now have had the GS for 18 months after having had the Classic for a number of Years. While there are a lot of similarities, here are some personal observations on differences. Some people are going to dispute some of these, but like I said, personal observations. And I did a lot of work on my Classic, by myself :-)

• The FI is now almost OK, but IMHO it's still not perfect, but is well documented. Fixes include unplug the O2 sensor, add Fuel Nanny.
• The Oil Change is easier on the Classic. On the GS you have to remove the Faux Tank Panels to access the Oil Tank.
• The Valve Check is MUCH easier on the Classic. Tank off and you're at the Valve Cover. See the GS Valve Check FAQ for the umpteen million bits you have to take off just to get to the Valve Cover.
• Replacing the Shims on the GS I believe entails taking off the Cam Carrier, because you can't get the front Cam Chain Rail Guide past the Radiator to give you enough Chain Slack to get at the LHS Shims with the Carrier in. Still experimenting.
• The GS LHS Indicator Switch is farther away from your thumb and you can't just move the lever mount along, because the Switch is Integral with it.
• The GS Mirrors have been known to move (fold back) like crazy.

• The early GS has had quite a few reports of Radiator Leaks. Mine went at 6500kms.
• The GS still hasn't made a better Water Pump. Mine went at 2400 km's. Still as easy to fix though.
• The GS Motronic System is connected to the ABS/Speedo Sensor at the rear wheel. If the sensor goes you not only lose your Speedo, your bike does a fair impression of galloping girty. Mine went at 7000kms.
• I personally think the Stock Seat on the Classic was more comfortable than the GS one is.
• The Fuel Filter/Regulator has to be replaced as one integral unit.
• The GS doesn't suffer from Carb Wear, Pukin petrol like the Classic.
• The balance of the GS is nice, due I think to tank under seat, however in Traffic/at Low Speeds I get the feeling the Classic was better, probably due to more weight over the front.
• The GS drives better at low Speeds, even with the 16T Front Sprocket. I got the same low speed driveability on the Classic with a 15T front (or larger rear).
• The GS has better bearings and I would say is better put together. SKF at least on the wheel bearings, which I replaced as some idiot in the factory left out a Circlip between the (NOW 2 bearings vs. Classic's 1) in the Sprocket Carrier. See the FAQ.
• The GS has a Cheesy front Fairing. See the Well nuts FAQ.
• The GS has one easy-to-access large Exhaust if your Exhaust gaskets ever blow. he nuts don't look as Cheesy as the Classics do.
• The GS has a separate Oil Tank, so doesn't heat up the Steering head Bearing Grease like the Classics does.
• The DAKAR version of the GS has two Chain Rollers, one of which is the princely sum of US$70. The GS has just one, and upper roller. See the FAQ.
• The Classic has a Low Fender Supplied. The GS Sprays water all over you and needs an aftermarket one, desperately.
• You have to remove three bits of fairing to access the GS Battery, which is right above the Engine and gets hot.
• Your legs & Crotch get pretty hot beside the Faux Tank on the GS. The Classics big petrol Reservoir keeps you nice and cool. Nice in a cold climate. Bloody Awful in a hot one.
• My GS Vibrates more than the Classic did. Maybe it's still new-ish, but I've tightened the Frame bolts and while it's better you FEEL it more, partly IMHO due to the lack of the Rubber Grommets the handlebars fit through on the Classic. The GS doesn't have these it's a direct connection to the Triple Tree. I noticed this when I put on Bar Risers.
• There is much less under-seat room on the GS than you have on the Classic. The Rear compartment is pretty small. Considering a Staintune Single Exhaust so I can Fashion a Faux Pipe Storage Tube on the RHS.
• The GS doesn't have an adjustable Bolt on the Centrestand like the Classic Had. I want to make the stand come forward a bit more when it's up on it, because I think it's perched a bit at a too vertical angle. No dice, no adjustment. (The Dakar doesn't even HAVE a Centrestand).
• The GS has nor grease nipples for the Centrestand.
• So far no-one has had Seat or ignition lock problems with the GS like the Classic has.
• The GS has a better alternator output.
• The GS doesn't have the Classics Buffeting problems, or at least no-where near the same extent.
• The GS Cams & Head are from BMW, so will probably not pit so easily (Cams), Valves recede (Head).
• If I was going from HK to the UK via China & Russia, I'd take the Classic. It's a pity about the poor quality of a lot of Parts on the Classic, bearings etc, but like Flash says, I can fix the Carbs. Sure I could carry a spare injector, but a Spare Motronic, Speedo Sensor Cable, Fuel Filter/regulator, Fuel Pump...?? Naaah.
• The Brake Light Switch is better on the GS than the Classic. No Druckstuck.
• The GS has just one Coil and one Spark Plug. So far, don't know if that's good or bad. Just different.
• The GS Oil Filter is the same as the Classics.
• The Classic had an adjustable Centrestand. On the GS, you have to grind the lugs. My Centrestand was so upright the bike rolled off it at a Gas Station Twice. After Grinding it sits a little further back, so the bike goes up and over it and stays there.
• The GS is hot in the crotch Area. There's no Substitute for that large cool Tank of Gas between your lugs to deflect the heat.

Don't get me wrong, the GS is a fine bike, it's a good engine and a well balanced ride and it looks well sexy. It's still easy to work on by yourself, although not AS easy. I'll add to the list as times goes on.

Harl #380:

• Had both. In my experience, the carbed bike ran better above 5000 rpm, the FI bike below 3000 rpm. FI got better mileage. Surged like mad, even on deceleration. It was one of the first US bikes and it was before BMW would admit that surging was an issue and blamed the rider for bad riding technique.

Mike #639:

• F650GS Pros: ABS (non-Dakar), greater output alternator, more robust counter balance design, in-house built cams, fuel injection, processor controlled engine management system, new (stiffer) frame design. Smoother power delivery between 2K-3K RPM. Dakar version available with 21in front tire/wheel and more suspension travel. Cons: Some (many, most?) bikes exhibit intermittent stalling and mis-firing at midrange RPM's (BMW may have a fix and post 01/01 built bikes are supposed to be fixed at the factory). If the EMS or fuel pump fails (may be unlikely) and you don't have a spare with you you're probably S.O.L. Fewer aftermarket accessories available so far.
• F650 Funduro Pros: Been around long enough to work out most glitches. With sufficient know-how (available on this board) easier to adjust or make changes to fuel delivery system (twin carburettors), or repair in the middle of nowhere. Large, loyal following on this board. More aftermarket accessories. Cons: Some bikes exhibit intermittent poor running unless changes made to emissions equipment/plumbing (knowledge available on this board). Lumpy, jerky power delivery below 3K rpm on some (many, most?) bikes.

Andy #982:

• The F650 build quality is better than other modern BMW's where it counts (engine etc.). Two F's have never left me stranded while the R1100 has a habit of suffering minor electrical problems. My new R1100R also got through 3 Japanese made shock absorbers due to rust in the warranty period. Rewiring a new bike that cost GBP10K is not my idea of quality, nor would be paying GBP500 a shot for a shocker. I don't really care about the cosmetics if the bike performs well, bikes are for riding not looking at.
• Aprilia also has expanded massively in recent years while BMW has not grown faster than the general market. Aprilia quality cannot be that bad. Rotax make more engines than BMW do and for tougher jobs. A fire pump engine runs at full power every time it is used, a 3 series car engine is lucky if it gets to full operating temperature on a 3 mile trip to the shops. Aprilia and Rotax are set to stay in the bike market, BMW are a car manufacturer. The F is fortunate not to be a real BMW. Running costs are lower because there are three or more sources for many bits that are not BMW. Also, it does not attract as much of the badge premium as the R or K. You get better than current BMW engineering, a BMW badge and near Japanese prices. A good buy if the price is right. Buying new is the problem as you have to pay BMW prices and suffer the depreciation. Look at the individual bike and the price, not out of date company reputations. I bought the last of the old F's to get the proven technology.
• All new BMW's take at least two years to get right. The FI models are only on loan from BMW, they all have to go back to the dealer at least once a year to get the computers cleared out. On the other hand in the real world dealers aren't that much trouble to get to so you pay your money and take your choice. The other big problem I had with the FI models is the tank location. This prevents you expanding the fuel capacity for under GBP800. The Funduro tank is half this price. BMW Luggage isn't worth the reclaimed milk cartons its made out of IMHO.
• If I wreck the F tonight I'd buy another carbed model or go the Jap bike route. Service intervals are 6000 miles. Nothing major tends to go wrong until 30000 plus if the bike is not abused. Water pumps are said to be a weak point but are not major items to fix if you have a little skill and a place to work. Apart from that its wear and tear items like clutches that will give hassle if you are going to get any. When buying listen to the engine look for signs of wear etc.
• BTW all F650's rattle below 1500 rpm or so due to the auto de-compressor. The only changes between 94 and 99 were cosmetic such as the change faired to un-faired indicators, screen heights and the replacement of the temp gauge with a clock. Mileage and service history are more important that year IMHO. ST models are worth less in Europe and are not as accomplished off road, but are equal on the black stuff.
• Personal experience says yes the carbed bikes are better, or mine is at least. I bought mine in July '99 and have never looked back. 16500 miles, no real trouble, good for at least another 3 years. I've done UK to Norway and UK to Southern France without any worries. My alternative would have been an early FI model that would have cost me GBP1000 more, had less toys and maybe surged and or stalled, resulting in arguments with BMWUK and all the minions of the underworld. Your problem now is that if you buy a '99 you maybe have another years abuse by previous owners to deal with, but you know the design was sound. You'll save $x on the purchase but maybe have to spend $y keeping it alive. You'll also have older styling and slightly less power. Apples and oranges really. I'm keeping the '99.
• I must admit the GS is growing on me. I wrote an article about the F back in January (having opened my mouth in a debate on the BMW club website about the number of what I did on my holiday type articles in the club mag I had to put my pen where my mouth was). In the article, having expounded the virtues of the carbed F in particular and any F in general, I concluded that the GS wasn't quite ready for serious touring use due to the FI problems and cost of fitting more fuel capacity. The article was published in May, so I re-read it. Thinking about it now, I would consider a GS if I wreck the classic. Funny how a bit of time makes the problems look less of a barrier to a new bike.

Leo #699 Utica, NY - 2000F:

The carb models, 2000 and older, run consistently fine.

Mark #403:

• Carb'ed bikes tend to require carb rebuild around 20-25K miles. I'm at 22K miles, and I just lost about 10 mpg in the last few months. I'm ASSUMING it's carb-related, but haven't gone through it yet.

Richard #230:

• I have had motorcycles run for over 80,000 miles without needing a carb re-build. However, I suppose that the F650 vibration is causing needle jet wear. My mileage has slipped about 5% over the past 28,000 miles, but that is not too significant. I still get over 50 mpg average gas mileage and a pint per 1000 miles oil mileage.

Fede:

• Some months ago a friend of mine was searching a new bike, and step by step was convinced by me to buy the new F650GS, after seeing my bike once time and another...Some numbers...
  Two bikes. Tank full for both bikes. Last Saturday we went through Sierra de Cazorla. The trip was very wonderful. We run for about 385 Km. during more than 6 hours. The trip included about 145 Km in autovia or autobahn or autostrada, running 110-120 Km/h, and about 42 Km. on a off road trail. And Going back home we made a stop to put some gas. Data:
• My friend's bike: new 2002 F650GS, with about 1100 Km before the trip. Gas spent: 6.0 euros, 7,38 liters, 3,46 l/100 Km, 28.88 Km/l.
• My bike: 1994 F650, with about 70.500 Km. before the trip. Gas spent: 9.0 euros, 11.09 liters, 5,20 l/100 Km, 19,22 Km/l. For both, exactly running the same distance: 213.2 Km. My friend is starting to convincing to me, Hmmm...

• I bought an R1150R in January and loved it. Until I bought a Dakar in February. Then the 50R sat while the odo on the Dakar spun. Yesterday I sold the 50R, and ordered up more goodies for the Dakar. The 50R is a fine bike. But when I had an opportunity to ride and had to choose which bike, the Dakar almost always won. The Dakar was more versatile (gravel, etc.) more comfortable, and easier to flick around town, or through twisties. I even preferred the Dakar on the freeway for its better seat and easier ergos. DakotaDakar#1198

• I have a 1997 Funduro and a new R1150R. The Funduro is a better commute bike because it is lighter, thinner (can split lanes easier) and most importantly, has a better and smoother clutch take up from a stop. It also gets better mileage. The R-bike would only be better if your commute had a lot of freeway miles each day, or you carried a passenger. Richard #230, Pacifica, CA

• For those of you looking to move up to a larger standard/GS-type bike, MCN just published their comparison between the V-Strom, BMW R1150 Adventure, Triumph Tiger and Aprilia Capo Norde. While I haven't actually seen the article (the heat slows up the pony express this time of the year), word is that they liked the V-Strom the best. Quoting from another source:
  "By virtue of combining excellent performance and extraordinary value, the V-Strom narrowly wins this contest."  R1150 Adventure 2nd, Tiger 3rd and Capo Norde 4th. They also supposedly said, "The V-Strom was the bike we preferred to ride fast and furious, making it the hooligan of the four." And "Even on smooth dirt roads, it feels like an oversized motocross bike instead of a ponderous beast of burden like the others." Gerry #951 (Phoenix AZ)

• I did (consider it) briefly, but when I realized that for double my money I'd be getting a bike that was heavier, slower and had a less powerful generator, I quickly came to my senses and opted for the 1100.  The deal I may get is trading my 1100 for a 2001 low mileage 650 with some nice options including side cases, Dakar screen, ABS and an alarm. And I'd get a couple grand cash on top of that. But maybe I'm better off keeping the 1100 and buying some platform shoes. Twinrider on Advrider.

• I currently own a R1150GS and it's great but the bike is mostly used for commuting and the occasional rally and breakfast ride. I previously investigated replacing the 1150 with a F650GS because it's lighter, more economical and other practical considerations. At the time I dismissed this on the basis that the F650GS is less suited to travelling long distances. Any thoughts. PS. I usually ride one-up as my wife has her own bike, and newly acquired F650GS. Max

• I would select the F650GS over the R1150GS for going anyplace, anything. If I wanted a long distance machine I would suggest the K12LT or R1150RT. The F650GS has the same if not more luggage (BMW) capacity but those other bikes offer more wind protection. The F650GS is the first choice as a commuter in city traffic because it is so light and easy to handle. You also get 50% better gas mileage (60 v 40) in city riding. Whatever puts a smile on your face on the way to work is what is best.  The R1150GS is too big, heavy and only lets you accelerate a little faster than the more manageable F650GS. One more thing... BMW does give you a little more for those extra $7,000 on the R1150GS, the question is it needed or worth it? Dave # 717

• 3000 mile trips with camping gear are no trouble, you just can't do a pillion and a stack of luggage and 100 mph, you have to pick one or two out of the three. We'd all like an F650 that'll cruise at 120 with a pillion and luggage, but that's having your cake and eating it. Still, you'll finds its cheaper to run if you do the miles, a lot easier as the road space gets less (back roads or city) and you'll get fewer tickets. You'll also find you can do a lot more work at home if you like. I like the 1150's but the the overall balance cost vs. performance is better on the 650. The F has all the real world performance I need, the speed limit is 70 after all. Andy Leeds UK #982

• I have owned both, currently have the F650. I think it's fine as a utility bike, great in tight corners, entertaining in town, warms up quickly. The big GS never warms up on short commutes, less than 10 miles. However, for any serious ground covering and if you are an aggressive rider on fast roads, the GS is unmatched. Actually like the R1100S, at high revs the F650 feel like you are thrashing it a bit. The big GS never feels that way. It's a false comparison, really, because they have pretty distinctly different uses. The big GS is fantastic riding fast with two up. Unbelievable. Johnny #862

• I was in the same dilemma two years ago. The Dakar won out. I had a wonderful time with the Dakar for two years. I found out the bike was a great long distance traveller if you are traveling alone. But living in the north with all the wet weather we get, found that you are lubing the chain way to often, especially when doing long distance traveling. I also found the wind protection from the windshield very poor with the Dakar shield. I'm sure with a few modifications these small problems could be corrected. Otherwise it was a great bike. As a new R1150gs adv owner I am finding the Adv will do everything the Dakar will do but in more comfort. It is a way better bike two-up. As far as off-road will do almost go everywhere the Dakar will venture. But slower. Wind protection is better, highway speed is a breeze with the 6 speed. The only problem is keeping it at the posted speed. To conclude. If you are looking for a smaller bike the 650 is a great bike, but if you can keep the big GS, it's never a problem having two bikes or more. Rick #815 BC Can

• I have one of each and would hate to make a choice. TomO-AR 650GS;1150GS Adventure

• Both bikes are awesome and legendary machines. The choice will be tough, even though they both have very distinct uses. I currently own the F 650 (Classic), and have been keeping an eye on the R 1150 GS for a while. But if I had to be purely practical, and sensible, I'd keep my F. The advantages of the F 650 (GS or not) is, as you pointed out, economical running, fewer maintenance issues, much more fun in the bush, easier in heavy traffic etc, etc. The R 1150 GS, on the other hand, will sit at a good clip all day, and the engine keeps your toes warm! With your wife riding the F 650 GS, I'd say the advantages of the 1150 are largely not relevant, as she won't be able to keep up with you anyway. I do some two-up touring with my F, and find the bike eating up anything I throw at it, including some nasty dirt track work (yes, panniers et al!) The F 650 will spend the day at 140 km/h (plus pillion, panniers and top case loaded to the brim) without complaining. The big old GS will be a handful on rocky and sandy terrain. As far as comfort goes, by butt goes numb after 8 hours on ANYTHING other than a Goldwing or the LT. Larger windscreen are available, and they do make a substantial difference, as do the Touratech style (Acerbis) hand guards, as they deflect some of the wind off your shoulders. The F 650s sell incredibly well in this country - they're good, reliable bikes. If I could afford two bikes, I'd have the F 650 GS Dakar, and an R 1150 RT for the distant stuff. Ask your dealer to let you spend a day (or a weekend) with the F. You may just buy it. Bernard Cape Town, SA.

• I have looked at the Tiger, V-Strom, Adventure, very close and as most of you know I own the Dakar. I would not trade the Dakar for the Tiger or the V-storm. I find the V-storm NOT in any way an off-road bike but a street bike dressed up to look like a GS. I have driven a friends GS and love it. The biggest + was no lubing of chain on our travels, lack of fatigue on long distance travel. Handing was par to the Dakar and as far as off-road, I was amazed were he could go with the GS. These machines have reported to get amazing mileage on the motor before any major work 100.000mile + Its only two weeks till I make the trek to pick up my new adventure. The dealer phoned me yesterday to say they just received the adv bags{ very happy}. The first ones they have ever seen. Seems like BMW just got there stuff together and the dealers are getting them now. Regards. Rick Bizarro

• I must admit I'm drawn to the bigger, badder appearance, but quickly accept three things: 1) can't afford it, 2) wouldn't want to tip it on a trail, and 3) don't need it 'cause I have a Dakar.

• 1150GS or Dakar ? Both will work. Dakar if you want lighter and easier to handle (parking, etc.) 1150GS if you will do much two up or more highway runs, especially at higher speeds. Both are great choices. TomO #654 Arkansas '02GS

• Dakar is better in SAND since its lighter-1150 has more oomph at high speeds. Rotax843

• I had a brain fart and sold my beloved 650 to a good friend----and moved over (not up or down) to a 1150GS. But wish there was this same board and format on other bike message boards. You guys are so lucky !!! And the nice people too !!! So I am still returning here enjoying the nice conversation--keep it up !!!. Mark Sampson #217 "Big Dog"

• I just sold my '95 R1100GS(6 years) in favor of the F650! I had both together for about two years, but the 650 turned out to be more fun for me and the GS1100 was getting high miles at 90000. I'm 6'1" and a proper fitting seat makes a huge difference. I'm outfitting the 650 for the long haul, as my GS1100 was. Almost there with accessories on the 650. I've been on road trips, up to 4000 miles on the 650 and wanting nothing, but larger fuel tank. Acerbis coming soon. My other toys are Jesse bags, Corbin seat, slightly different shield (National), BMW tankbag and tank panniers by Aerostich. This bike with the proper setup is absolutely, every bit as good as the 1100 for touring, IMO. I ride dirt a fair amount on my trips, so the 650 really excels here, over the 1100GS. Another comparison; The R1100GS vs.1150GS for off road! The 1100GS wins this battle, with its better gearing. The new GS1150 is a BMW dualsport wannabe, unlike its 1100 brother, simply because of the gearbox, IMO!!! Randy748

• Well, I have to admit that I was seduced by the 1150gs, took several extended test rides and loved it so much that I traded in my Silver 99 F650. The 1150gs suited my needs more, I do more 2 up riding and high speed superslab, I did not mind the extra weight, can't really feel it when I'm moving, but I do love the extra 6th gear and the extra cylinder sure smoothes thing out.......too bad I could not afford to keep my F650, I really miss it. Hope you guys don't mind me visiting....everyday. Mike#720

• When I bought my Funduro in 99 I looked at the Aprillia. Insurance was higher (not lumped in with the old men's bikes) and Aprillia had no dealers within 50 miles. Today, the insurance groups are the same, so if Aprillia or the owners clubs have a pet insurance company, costs will be the same. Aprillia have three dealers within 15 miles due to the explosion in scooter sales. Parts for the BM are still more readily available outside the dealers. Having bought sundry bits like an MZ battery from the Aprillia dealer I'd say service was up to Jap dealer standards rather than BMW's "stuff you you've already paid" approach. These days I'd buy on the basis of the best deal on the day. I'd buy a CapoNord way before a R1150GS. Andy Leeds UK #982

• I'm going to guess you're deciding between the F650GS and the R1150GS and that you weigh between 204-216lbs. If you're spending most of your time on graded gravel roads and other such maintained off-pavement surfaces, I would recommend either the F650GS Dakar of the R1150GS Adventure. Both come with longer travel suspensions and more dirt oriented tires than the regular F650GS and R1150GS. The R1150GS Adv. also comes with a shorter first gear than the regular R1150GS, which will make it easier to handle off-pavement. The weight difference between the two bikes is 161lbs. according to BMW. I weigh 160 lbs. and find the F650GS much more manageable off-pavement than the R1150GS. I can ride much more quickly and confidently off-pavement on the F than I can on the R. Plus, I can pick up the F650GS easily. I feel that the power difference between the two bikes is negligible off-pavement because the R simply cannot put all of its power to the ground. However, the R is a much, much better highway bike. Good luck and have fun deciding, Paul An. Paul888

• The big GS has a number nice touches that would be great to have on the 650 too. I still think anyone wanting to get off road much is better off with the compromise found in the 650 than the 1150. If you've got $16K to spend on an 1150GS and you can manage it well in the dirt and you promise not to run me over, well, good for you. FWIW, I was just joking around with the bit about the gear counter. Struck me as kind of funny at the time. BradG 1002, N, CA '01GS.

• They've got good reviews of the 1150GS adventure and the F650gs on the main site: http://www.gmconline.com. Sean #1015 Ottawa Canada

• The 1150 is a very heavy machine when you take it off-road or into tighter confines. It's forte is cruising along effortlessly on long tar/dirt roads. The F650 is far more economical compared to the 1150. I do a lot of riding two-up with mine, and my girlfriend and I often spend long days in the saddle exploring the Cape surrounds - in perfect comfort. However, the twin boxer motor and shaft-drive of the 1150 puts it in an entirely different category. It is an immensely powerful bike with an impressive top speed. So my advice would be to get the F650 if your off-road escapades will be anything more technical than a flat, wide dirt road. If your planned daily mileage is expected to be that low, then the comfort and smoothness of the 1150 will mean little. Bernard, Cape Town, South Africa

• Try both bikes and buy the one you enjoy the most or buy both. You need to demo each bike over a weekend each. The 650gs costs less to run. Most of my riding is two up and both of us enjoyed the 650gs better than the 1150gs. Make sure and get all options when you decide as well fit a top box for your partner to lean back on.  Dean Waitakere City NZ 02GSDA

• I've owned both the "big" GS and the "little" GS and I don't know that I can add anything to this discussion. It truly is a matter of taste and preferences. Both have their place. I currently ride the F650GSD because it is lighter and while I haven't done, and probably won't do much off-road riding, I have other big bikes for cross-country riding and I like the 650 for scooting around back roads. The 1150GS is also a great bike for many types of riding. I'll second the motion to test ride both and make your own decision. RAN #827

• I've owned both, the 99 1100 GS meeting an untimely end when we hit a deer on a dark Texas highway. the GS was about 100 pounds heavier than the f-650 and I had to pick them both up out of the dirt/sand many times. The 1100 certainly the advantage on the Mexican autobahns, but i like to mix in some dirt with the street miles and the 650 is just overall a better off-road machine (extensive copper canyon miles), having the weight advantage makes the smaller bike a better overall bike for my purposes. I put a larger rear sprocket on mine and it will do 95 all day with me and 40 pounds of bag. tough call if cost isn't a factor. kev.

• If you have a short inseam the ll50GS will be a problem. You can get around this by shortening the suspension. There is an article on this in the December issue of the MOA magazine, page 19. Bill No.391 Las Vegas

• R1150GS vs F650GS. Your better half will enjoy the ride a lot more with a custom seat and backrest, etc.. Good riding gear, heated clothing and many other creature comforts are available these days, so leaving the trailer behind is an option for the well equipped. Maybe you don't fully understand the purpose for longer rides without all the anchors attached! The longer boring stretches are boring in the car, too. Just better on a bike. It cost a lot of money, today to ride in comfort, cross country, but the money is well spent, IMO. The bigger GS is the real choice for two up, as the 650 is very easily overloaded with two and gear. I've also had both at the same time and recently sold the big GS, because I'm a solo rider these days. The 650 is more fun for solo and goes anywhere the big GS would go on the highway, or offroad. I've ridden the 1100GS in the hardest places imaginable and the 650, too. No comparison in dirt. Imogene Pass, Co. on a 1100GS is a feat not many ,if any have done on such a big bike. I won't do it again, either. This Colorado country is 650 heaven! The big 1100/1150 bikes are quite a hunk of machine and take a pretty good beating but you have to be strong to get one through the nasty trails. I'm seeing a lot more these days getting off road. My 8000$ 650 does not hurt me nearly as much as the bigger 20000$ bike (equipped) when they fell, or fall. I just sold my '95 R1100GS(6 years) in favor of the F650! I had both together for about two years, but the 650 turned out to be more fun for me and the GS1100 was getting high miles at 90000. I'm 6'1" and a proper fitting seat makes a huge difference. I'm outfitting the 650 for the long haul, as my GS1100 was. Almost there with accessories on the 650. I've been on road trips, up to 4000 miles on the 650 and wanting nothing, but larger fuel tank. Acerbis coming soon. My other toys are Jesse bags, Corbin seat, slightly different shield (National), BMW tankbag and tank panniers by Aerostich. This bike with the proper setup is absolutely, every bit as good as the 1100 for touring, IMO. I ride dirt a fair amount on my trips, so the 650 really excels here, over the 1100GS. Another comparison; The R1100GS vs.1150GS for off road! The 1100GS wins this battle, with its better gearing. The new GS1150 is a BMW dualsport wannabe, unlike its 1100 brother, simply because of the gearbox, IMO!!! Randy748/Calif

• I agree with Randy. I just switched from the 1150 to the 650 Dakar, because the 1150 was too fragile off-road. But I was riding pretty hard with it in the dirt too. For what you described: mostly on pavement and 2 up, if no money involved, the IMO the 1150 is BY FAR the best choice. I could swap to the 650 also, because my wife just got pregnant and so I will ride alone for a while. JL - San Francisco - 650 Dakar.

• First off, never be ashamed to trailer if you're intent is to go ridding, especially if it's across a state like Kansas!! Motorcycles are an emotional activity, get the one that gives you the best vibes, riding and standing still. Personally, I bought the FGS 'cus I was a new rider and couldn't afford the 1150 and stay married. Now I am extremely happy with the F GS. I have explored roads in Colorado that I know I would not have dared on an 1150. Every time I decide to try something different, like long distance touring the F650 is always more than capable. I'm sue you'll love ether one!! Brian#834

• If you want to wait weeks for black box bits to arrive in the boonies, get the 1150GS. If you want simple, stick with carbs and the Classic (pre-'01) F650. Flash #412

• The Quota, Tiger, R1150GS, etc are all too big. The KLR, DR, XRL, etc were all wanting in the street dept. The KTM was too harsh for the road. The original Funduro didn't appear to being up to a lot of offroad. The F650GS Dakar looks perfect. If you haven't checked out Tim Bernard's Happy trails web site, do so. He has a full complement of stuff for the F650GS, just not a lot of current photos up yet. Bert

• Changed classic for GS but ... After trying some bikes (tiger, R1150gs, Pegaso i.e.) I decided after all Change my beautiful F650 SPECIAL EDITION for a 2002 F650GS. Initially I wanted more power on my engine, and that's why I tried the king of the touring/Enduro bike R1150gs. But I realize that is to heavy for offroad/mud/dust hilly roads. You cant ride by your self, because if you drop the bike you are in a big trouble if you have to pick it up alone!! The new F650gs is a awesome machine.! I tried my friend's and with it, in the curves I could ride almost 20km/hr faster and felt safer. If you know how to ride this bike you don't need more Hp's. Yes is thru with ABS breaking system was the second biggest invention for safety after helmet. It's a new world. So me and another friend decided to change ours better looking F650 classic to F650GS. But... I noted that the two new bikes generate too much heat from all around the battery/ oil area. No light of overheating or something like that. I consult the BMW dealer and he says that is because they are new at same time we ride them as is recommended for the first 1000 and 2000 km without passing 5000 rpm. Radiator fan starts working very often When I stop and feel it in my legs too. I don't like that heat and I'm not sure if this is normal. Everybody knows how the Sales guys are. Is this heat normal? Did somebody experienced the same? I hope this will disappear soon. I still think the F650Gs that the statement of many writers and product reviews that "is the best motorcycle in the market". And yes now I started to like the offroad look of the bike. If you can do the change.. do it. Guz

• I get no respect! I live in Detroit MI. USA. I own a Dakar and a R1150GS. When I'm on the road with the Dakar the other people in traffic do not give me the same space. I get with the Boxer. And other bikers (unless their on a BMW) Don't return the customary wave or salute. Anyone else have this problem? Connor #833

• I've owned my F650 for 2 years now and despite many temptations to go bigger and better ?, I've not yet found anything that betters the F650 in all areas. My only grief and its not really mine, is comfort.................two-up its just too cramped for me and my wife. I thought about a different, better laid out seat, but as yet have found nothing suitable. R1150GS's would fit the bill, but I don't fancy forking out the extra GBP5000 it would take to get one. Then I thought about the R850GS, which I don't think is available in the USA. Used examples in the UK are way cheaper than the 1150's. Well today I drove 400miles to try and possibly buy one. I didn't buy it................it was slower than my 96 F, it vibrated way more especially right where you would cruise at 70-85mph. On the positive side it was way more comfortable............no surprises there and it turned much better than the F, very light feeling and eminently flickable. I came away just wishing I could find a way to get the same comfort for two on the F. My wife absolutely detests riding pillion on it, so unless I can find or have made a better seat, I will have to change to something bigger against my better judgement....................any suggestions ? Sawdrl (Geordie land UK)

• To add to the other answers, two up the F is stable and quick enough. You would maybe struggle to do a two week camping trip two up as the luggage capacity becomes limited. On the flip side a bike that will do the transcontinental tour at 100 mph with a pillion and a ton of luggage will be no fun off road (R1150GS). Mechanically, the F is very reliable. The engine rattle at idle is the decompressor and is not a problem if it disappears by 1500 rpm. Early FI bikes had surging and stalling, but 99% of this now seems cured. The waterpump and head stock bearings can wear faster than you'd maybe expect, but this seems to be a small proportion of failures at 20000 miles plus. Have look at the FAQ and survey questions below. I'm on my second carbed F and would consider an FI one if I had the cash to put the Touratech fuel tanks on (I don't want to loose the 400 mile range, but that's just me). I must have done 35000 miles on F's from the North tip of Norway to the south of Italy. You'll find people here who've done twice that. The F is a true all rounder. Andy Leeds UK #982ndy

• I just tried a two-up ride on my '02 F650GS. I am 170lbs and my rider was 200lbs. Not good. Handling tough at low speeds, slower acceleration, not enough room, no back rest, etc.. I think even someone 120lbs would be too much for this bike on long trips. I strongly recommend looking at the 1150GS if you want the two-up capability. It could probably haul a small army on its back. Rod

• Most of my riding is 2 up with 50% gravel. The other week the 1150gs boys asked how come we can keep up all the time with the big boy toy's even 2 up. The Dakar is so much fun in the corners and hills as well costs a lot less to buy and run. I went into the BMW dealer today to test ride a 1150GS Adventure. Well I now know again why I enjoy the Dakar so much. It is so easy and fun bike to ride. Every one should ride other bikes just to remind us that the Dakar is such a ride. All 9 months of having the Dakar I have had no problems what so ever. KiwiDakar (02)

• Hey guys, Sorry I've been away. Sold my little red F650 for a new 1150GS. I won't go into details, but they are BOTH excellent bikes and BOTH have their good and not-so-good points. Anyway, I've check to see if I still have the 'list' of F650 riders in the Austin area. It may take me a while to find it on a back-up disc but if I find it, I'll pass it along to Robert #959 via email. Scott #678 (TX '99F)

• I ran my '97 F to Alaska and back (from New Mexico) with an R100GS and an R1100GS. The only place I would have liked a bigger bike was in Idaho/Utah/NM on the way home, where we'd probably have been running ~90+ if we'd all had oilheads. Other than that, the F was able to play with the bigger bikes just fine. I wouldn't worry about it not keeping up at touring speeds. Bryan #179

• My '98 R1100GS has 65,000 miles on it. It is the best all around bike I have ever had. It sport tours, it goes two up for thousands of miles, and it ate up many crotch rockets at a CLASS school at Road Atlanta (in the fast group!). GS's rule. Alan #442 FL

• Do you ride in the dirt? Define trail riding. If you are talking MX racing forget the F get a 250. Green lanes and un-surfaced roads are quite possible on the F if you are prepared to take it steady. I don't know the Suzuki, probably a different model in Europe, but the Jap bikes like the DR650 and KLR tend to be more off road oriented. The F beats most dual purpose bikes on the black stuff. Its a lot easier to pick up than an R1100GS or a Triumph Tiger too. Anyone who started to design a true all round bike with real world performance from scratch would design an F650, that's why BMW and Aprillia came up with the same solution as did Suzuki with the SV. The Yamaha XT is of course the father of the whole lot, but is still very much a trail bike with "extended" road ability from the bigger engine. The only people who have a problem with the F are the serious R and K people who seem to need to justify how they were talked into spending mega bucks on gas guzzling 1100's that still can't outrun a CBR 600 or out tour a big scooter. That's their problem, you can spot them as they go on and on and on about shaft drives (mention R1100GS drive splines to shut them up).  Journalists never ride a bike more that half a mile if the beer tent is open, it's easier to write the articles using 1980's jargon. This has the basic formula that anything that can be ridden on a restricted license (i.e. under 33 hp) is a learner/commuter bike. Anything under 750cc is a good first bike, anything with clip on style bars is a sports bike. Anything else is a tourer, unless it has knobbly tyres, then its a dirt bike. As a result, the F gets labeled as an overweight trailie or a beginners bike. BMW should have given the CS clip on bars and an electric windscreen to confuse the hacks. MCN has the same trouble with the Aprillia RS125. They thought it was a scooter with sports bike style and reviewed it accordingly (I don't think the journo actually saw the bike). Actually its as near a 125 race replica as you can get and will outrun most 600's, so you can imagine what people who bought one based on the review thought! I wish my insurance company would base policy costs on MCN! Andy Leeds UK #982

• The 850GS is the 1100GS with a smaller engine, if I'm not mistaking. So you add all the weight of an 1100 and add 200ccm....The 1100GS is a riot to ride though. Very "light" and easy, but I found that 1.5 hours on the back of it leads to SBS (Sleeping Butt Syndrome). I recently delivered my F650 saddle to a furniture shop. (I don't know the English word for it, but they redo old sofas and stuff.) The shop I went to happens to be the shop that does ALL the police bikes in Oslo as well, so they know what they're doing. They had rolls of original BMW anti slip fabric and rebuild to your needs. They only wanted $140 for the whole job. I haven't gotten it back yet, but with 2.5 inches of added foam and also moved back almost an inch it should do the trick. I imagine there's a shop like this where you live as well and they could probably add foam 'til your wife felt comfortable (even if she'd need a latter to get up there =o)  Thomas849 (Oslo, Nor)

• Good luck and great rides ahead, Barry. Sorry to poop on your happy moment, but you'd have to give me one of the new oilheads. I'm certainly never buying another! I've got 90000 miles experience on the GS1100 and loved everything BUT the motor's ability to run at 100% all the time. The throttle bodies were the biggest problem, along with the motronic. The bikes are the best looking around, but I'm soured on the engines operational systems! BMW stood behind the bike and tried everything to get mine right, but never did. They should have given me a new one. I really loved the R1100GS for 90000 miles, but finally gave up on the beast. The new models are NO different in engine! I'm an old airhead guy from way back and now doing the R100 thing again and way toooo much happier. I really love my 650, too. Hope your 1150 gets through its little baby steps and turns out fine. Randy748/Calif.

• Sorry I've been away. Sold my little red F650 for a new 1150GS. I won't go into details, but they are BOTH excellent bikes and BOTH have their good and not-so-good points. Anyway, I've check to see if I still have the 'list' of F650 riders in the Austin area. It may take me a while to find it on a back-up disc but if I find it, I'll pass it along to Robert #959 via email. Scott #678 (TX '99F).

• 1150 too big a jump? Having a hard time choosing a bike - I currently ride a KTM 620 & am wondering if the jump to a r1150gs adventure would be too much of a shock? I'm debating between a f650gs or GSD or the 1150 adventure. Would be used mostly for city/freeway commuting (southern CA - LOTS of traffic) - and the occasional long road/offroad trip. Freelance photography is part of what I do, so I'd want to outfit it with boxes, fender box, etc... to carry gear. I like the idea of the 1150, but having never been on one, I can't say I like it with any certainty. Inte.

• My buddy just bought the 1150 and the biggest difference is the size- I mean the hulking mass of metal that is the 1150GS dwarfs my 650GS. Other differences I've noticed:
  -I push my bike up the inclined driveway and he turns the engine on to do it
  -theres about 20 MPH top speed difference- both go over 100
  -the 1150 DEFINITELY has better mounting points for lights
  -The 650 seems skinnier than it's bigger brother- better for splitting
  -Lots of people tour on the big one but I just did 1000+ miles in 16 hours on the 650 with no trouble.
  -You can get bags for both- I rode around half the day with 2 tires strapped to mine and I have no luggage or racks. Short of serious lumber, everything I buy at the hardware store gets home on 2 wheels. For that matter, everything else I buy does too.
  -More distance per tank with the twin, better mileage with the thumper.
  -Easier maintenance on the thumper- you have to remove the tank to get to the battery on the 1150.
  
  Ultimately, you get what you feel like getting. It's a big bike but it's manageable and very capable of everything you listed. It's also twice the price of the 650. What's wrong with the KTM? I saw the prettiest '89 Transalp today and would have traded my 650 for it if the owner weren't so smart... Ride what you want and what feels good. You can get used to anything if you're a good rider. chppdlvvr, 2001 F650GS

• You didn't mention how tall you are, but for the 1150 adventurer only the tall need apply. It's a long way up to that seat. Take each bike out for a demo ride, should give you a better idea which one will be best for you. Tom
  Runaway #1259 (CO)

• Can't speak of other dealerships/brands, but as far as test rides and BMW dealerships go...I haven't been to one yet that doesn't like it. So far every one has just about begged me to take bikes out for rides. That includes before I bought my bike, and AFTER. Every time I go to my dealership they offer me to go take a bike out for a spin, even though they know that at this point I'm absolutely not in the market for another bike and won't be for years to come. Maybe it has to do with all the folks at my dealership being bike fanatics themselves? For someone my size (5'7") I think the F650GS is about as perfect a bike as I could wish for when it comes to fit and ergonomics. I've tried the 1150GS, and absolutely don't like the seating position, I feel much more cramped in the legs while it's almost a reach for me to comfortably get to the handlebars. If you're comfortable with the big GS, great. Personally I think especially for city riding the F650 exceeds the 1150. It's nimble and quick and easy to manoeuvre. If you intend on riding a lot of two-up, maybe the 1150 has more advantages. As far as luggage goes, you have a lots of options on the 650. I'm excited to see what the Pilot luggage looks like that MicaTech is introducing in the next couple of weeks. Otherwise Jesse's or Happy Trails will do just fine! Natalie, '03 black F650GSA

• Depends on lotsa things. Like any big bike......, it's fine once you're doing over 3 mph. It's the starts and stops and more so the manoeuvres necessary with feet on the ground and how well a rider can handle them that should be the deciding factor. If you can move it around easily, when it's not running, it should be okay. Many here have expressed interest in the 1150 over the last two years and have, in fact, gone on to get one. It is, like most things, your personal preference. You might find them on www.advrider.com. Personally......., I don't like two front fenders. Art 884

• Inte, my experience is the same as Natalie's. I am usually offered a ride on a bike if I am just looking at it. Maybe it helps if they have seen you in before? I have been under the impression that BMW dealers encourage test rides. Many years ago I went into the local Honda/BMW/Ducati dealer for something for my Honda V65 Sabre one Sat. The service manager asked me if I would help him out. Thinking he needed help moving something i said sure. He pointed to two of the used Beemers sitting there and asked if I would ride each bike 25-30 miles to charge up the battery's. He didn't need to ask twice. Needless to say I discovered Beemers and have ridden them ever since. Tom McCallum

• O.K. Everybody, I've got to come out of the closet and break the news. Three w/e's ago, I traded my beloved F650GS Dakar in on a black & yellow 03 1150GS Adventure. After careful thought and consideration, I was itching for something new and after a couple of test rides, I traded the Dakar in on the BIG GS. I must say that I did have to order the BMW lower seat because I stand only 5ft. 8in.. There are pro's and con's for both bikes and there are trade offs. Before I took possession of the bike, I replaced the tires with Michelin T 66's and also did not purchase the BMW fog lamps. Instead I contacted Touratech and ordered a set of PIAA's and light bar for it (much better lights and cheaper too). The Adventure is a monster of a bike but don't let it's size fool you. While riding, it is very nimble and when I hit the throttle, it moves on like a spotted ape! Yesterday, I took it on a substandard dirt and gravel road and did not notice any bad handling characteristics. Sure, if I drop it, it is going to be heavy to pick up but I was just ready for a change. I look at the Chaingang Forums almost daily, and although I remain mostly silent, this is still and will be my favorite motorcycling organization. 97 Harley Davidson Roadking, 03 1150GS Adventure. Beau A. #645

• Inte, I did go the other way. I had a hang-up imagining a smaller bike as a do all mount. After I bought a F for my wife and compared it to my spare KLR, I knew the F650 Dakar could be my main bike. I had an R1100GS and a Guzzi Quota first . I have a long inseam and the GS with the seat jacked up was very tall to the ground, but still not very tall between seat and pegs. I was tippy toes on the GS and I have a 35" inseam. The Dakar with the Touratech footpegs system is more comfortable. It is more "flickable" and I have much more confidence on the dirt and gravel roads of Nevada where I live. FWIW... :-) bwfox Chaingang Member #1131 02 F650GS, (Wife's) 03 F650 Dakar

• I two have traded my Dakar in for a 02 Adv in August of last year. I loved my Dakar and toiled with the idea of a bigger, heavier bike. I put 19000km on the Dakar in a year and a half found it to be all I needed. Then I rode a r1100gs. Even though it was an older GS I was sold. More power, more room, the ability to go two-up for miles. I'm 6.2 and the Dakar was cramped, I found when traveling. The stalling and surging issue and a few other details really got under my skin for the first day. To make it short, I traded and now 5000Km in 1.5 months I will never go back. I must agree with #645, it is a BIG bike. But when you put your feet on those pegs it is a awesome machine. As far as dirt tracking goes, the knobby tires sure make a difference. I can go anywhere I dare to go with the Dakar. Tire wear is an issue, at 5000km I say it is almost time for a new rear tire. But the price of a replacement is not too bad. The fuel range at 30L is great roughly 450km, not broken in yet might get better. I will be working on some kind of a review and my thoughts in the future and might get it put in the Sprocket. Any questions please e-mail me. Rick.
  #645

• I'm 5'10" with a 29" inseam. I traded in the 650GSA for a 1150 GS Sport (non-ABS) a week ago. There is enough sag to the suspension that with my vibram-soled boots that I can get a good plant on both sides with my 29" inseam. A couple of the Seattle area dealers encourage rides -- longer the better as there seems to be a direct correlation to the number of demo riders that come back to start dealing. Loved the 650 but had a R100 boxer before and decided to go for the larger bike. North"wet".

• A lot depends on what your definition of "city" traffic is & how fast you plan to be riding. I've been to 3 BMW dealers, asked for-and received-test rides at 2. You can probably carry more with the 1150GS, but they get really wide once you load up with side boxes. The 650GS has an available sidecase that you can expand to a wider width. Have you looked at the other 1150 models? The R1150R goes for little more than the 650GS. 2001 F650GSA Chicago, IL. Logan's Ride

• I owned a 1150GS for over a year and found it very capable on paved roads but basically pretty boring. Another thing is that the 1150GS is REALLY big and heavy. I dropped it in the driveway once and could not pick it up by myself and I'm a big guy. I had to get my wife and a neighbor to help. It's something to consider if you are planning to do any solo touring off road. In contrast, I dropped my KLR650 (same size as the Dakar) in deep sand last week and picked it up easily. My $0.02 Lynn

• I've got a '97 F, not a GS. I haven't ridden the GS. But I've put a lot of miles on the older F, and had a '94 K75S for 25k miles. So I'll start. The F is much better on a dirt road. It's lighter, it's quicker to throw around when it gets real twisty. A K75S, with those short little bars and bouncing fairing, was a real PITA on a dirt road. The K is more stable at speed. It's faster, it's more powerful. The motor, well, you have one. It's amazingly smooth. The F wins around town and as a grocery getter, for sure. The F motor isn't really an issue. It's not as smooth as the K, but it's never been a problem for me. It's surprisingly smooth for a single, and the vibrations that do come through aren't annoying. The K is better 2-up. The F isn't very roomy 2-up, and I get the feeling that the weight bias ends up with not enough weight on the front wheel. The F will do 2-up, but that's not it's strong point. It will work better at 2-up if the rider is not too tall. Suspension and brakes are comparable, i.e., not up to the standards of an oilhead. My K was cheaper to maintain - oil, gas, tires. Np chains and sprockets. The stock K seat was OK. The stock F seat just plain sucked. Bryan #179 (NM)

• I know it's the wrong forum but some of you probably have 1100RTs so... what do you think of them as a companion bike to the GS? I'm thinking the GS is the adventure tour/zipping around town/commuting to work general purpose bike and the RT would be for long distance touring and/or the "date" bike better suited for taking a newbie rider two-up. Everyone happy with their RTs? Think I should wait and for similar money get the Yamaha FJR1300? Kelly #1005

• I recently purchased a used 1100RS for longer distance rides and I really like the brakes, the way it holds a line thru a corner and the weather protection. the weight of a RS is in the 500plus category whereas the RT is over 600lbs. I recently did a 400 mile day and felt less fatigue than if I drove the car. On my F I could only do 200-300 miles. Richard 424, Oregon

• I would give a careful consideration to the ST1100/1300 over the RT for the following reasons:
  1) Less money
  2) Less trouble (compare chat rooms)
  3) Larger gas tank in the St
  4) Lower center of gravity in the ST (tank under seat like the GS)
  5) Long range tires available (excedra)
  Mine has 86k on it with no problems other than a faulty sidestand switch. It looks and runs like new (1992 model)
  Its been around the country three times and never let me down. paul

• I hear that the new R1150RT and RS bikes can have a surging problem that rivals that of the F650GS at its worse. Want to tour the country? You're on the right track with the RT. Look here for some links and many comments. http://jeff.dean.home.att.net/index.html. RDW #1134, Vancouver BC

• I have a 99 R11RT and use it for 2 up or heavy load touring. It handles like a canyon cutter and reliable as the day. For an entry level bike I would not recommend it over the F650GS. The R11RT is a wonderful touring bike for highway use only. I have a 650 GS for those off road jaunts to great fishing spots and short hauls. Just my 2 cents. OregonF650GS

• The RT is the best bike I've ever owned for cross country touring--I had one for 3 years then rode the F650 at the Rhinebeck MOA rally and traded the RT in on returning home for the F650---The reason is that for me, the RT is a big bike and with a full tank of fuel, top heavy---It is fast, comfortable and the electric controlled windshield is a great thing---It is soooo smooth--going down the PA turnpike enroute east to the Rhinebeck rally and wondered why no cars were passing me--all was so serene and smooth--looked down and was doing 96mph---fortunately no highway patrol were in the vicinity--If one had a GS and an RT you would, in my view, have the best of both worlds. One more thing---I never felt any surging but I tend to keep the rpms up and I think this helped. Bill No.391 Las Vegas

• Price the replacement fairing panels before you buy one, especially if you're vertically challenged or a 110 lb weakling. Drops are inevitable (at least in my case). Marty #436-Chicago-97 F650F

• I believe I made the right choices with my '03 Dakar and '02 1150 RT. The RT is an excellent companion to the Dakar and is used for occasional commuting and runs up and through the northern Sierras. It has run without issue since it was new, and at 9k miles, it seems to keep improving. It is shifting smoother, revving faster, and it has always handled superbly. Although the Honda and Yamaha seem to be good contenders in this category, I personally give the BMW an edge from the standpoint of looks, comfort, warranty, and aftermarket support. I prefer bikes that have a touch of character, hence my choice of the BMW single and twin. The Japanese have refined their bikes to the point where they sometimes lack the personality I prefer. This is a personal choice and I would suggest riding each before handing over $$$. Jeff #398 '03 Dakar, Nor-Cal.

• I ride my 650 GS Dakar everywhere. I have rode it two up from Southern California to Canada and beyond. I have had it almost 2 years and have over 16000 miles. It works great around town, dirt roads and works fine on the HWY. Yes, a bigger bike would be nicer( maybe), but people are amazed when the see what I do with this bike two up loaded with side and top bags on it. My friends ride boxer twins and the cant believe what this little bike does and at the speed it does!! If I can spend 16 days on this bike two up with boxer twins, well, it passes the test. Kevin GS Dakar

• Somebody on this board asked if anybody had ridden a Transalp, compared to an F650 or a KLR, and now I can't remember which thread the question was in. So here's my humble opinion anyway. For ten years or so, until the F650GS era, this family had a Transalp. (as well as an earlier one, actually almost forgot) Took the more recent one on an extended (four months of riding every day) tour of Mexico and Central America. They are rugged and reliable, and if they had been available new last year, we might well have bought another one instead of the second 650. I'd sure think twice before taking a FI bike into some of the remote areas we went into. The Transalp is very tolerant of the amateur mechanic type of repairs. The Transalp is nothing like the KLR. It's much closer to the F650GS. In fact it's on the other side of the GS. Compared to the GS it's top-heavy, and it feels quite a bit heavier. This biases it more to the highway, actually, than the GS. Cross winds don't bother it nearly as much, and it's a comfortable ride, in the sense of being very steady on the highway. However, on long distance trips, the stock seat is a tad less comfortable than the stock GS seat, for a big guy anyway. There is less vibration, of course, because it's a twin rather than a single. On the other hand, it's more of a handful off road. As I said, it feels heavy, and you have to work harder on anything but a fairly civilized two track. It has the advantage of being a whole lot cheaper than the BMW. All in all, it was one of the all time favourites around here. mspeed #1023

• Transalp - my experiences. Copied and pasted from the Owners & Bikes page of my BMW F650 website. I owned a Honda Transalp XL600V for 10 years and loved that bike. It took me commuting, it was loaded up to the hilt when required, it took me camping in the UK and through Europe and Spain to the Picos Mountains. It was blasted along the motorways, (when necessary), for hours on end in total reliability. It was also used locally for some 'easy-ish' Trail Riding, although I found it was a pig to pick up when dropped, especially in muddy conditions. While I had the Africa Twin I kept wishing I'd kept the Transalp and not bought the A/T, but that's progress. Anyway, when I sold the Africa Twin, (due to lack of use), I was given a 50cc scooter by a neighbour to get around town on, so I had plenty of time to look for a replacement bike, which had to have the ability to go off-road and be as good as the Transalp in all respects. I looked very hard at both new and good second hand Transalps, but didn't like the styling of the 'new shape' one and I also looked at the CCM and various other offerings such as the XT500/550 and super-motos. I had tried a second-hand BMW F650 Strada some time earlier, but at that stage it wasn't on my 'buy' list, 'cos it had been well thrashed. It was quite by chance I was visiting a BMW dealer who offered me a ride on the 'latest' F650, the GS model, and although it was a cold and uninspiring day, I knew that after 5 minutes into the ride this was going to be my next bike. I rode it gently through the town, then thrashed it up the local bypass, found some rough tracks and checked its ability there and I was elated. Enough power for me for long touring jaunts and nimble enough for the 'lanes' and Town traffic. I returned and placed my order. The things I like about it which to my mind are 'better', (for me), than the Transalp is (1) The seat which is much comfier, 'cos it's wider. (2) Because it's lower than the Transalp, I find it easier paddling around in parking places in Town, including my awkward parking place by my house and also when 'Green Laning' at times. (3) 70 mpg from the F650GS v 49mpg from the Transalp (4) It's lighter than the Transalp to make a real difference for me (5) It feels less 'wallowy' than the Transalp did when ridden hard, but that may well have been down to the age of my Transalp, 'cos it was 11 years old when I sold it. The Transalp does have slightly better weather protection from its larger 'fairing', but that wasn't significant in 'my' final choice. I find the 'buzziness' of the engines to be about the same, but different, because of the engine configurations. Trevor #999

• Here in Norway, Transalps are actually priced slightly higher than the F650GS. Very good bikes, though, and have been very popular with the local dispatchers for years. I know the owner of one of the MC dispatch companies, and I believe his Transalp has gone almost 300 000 km now. The engine was completely dismantled at 150 000 km, and showed almost no wear at that stage. Better wind and rain protection than the GS, but much more boring appearance than the Dakar. Both the Transalp and GS are very good bikes for the kind of riding we have in Fjord country, BTW. Oyvind #1052, Norway.

• KLR wt dry 337, front and rear travel 9.1 inches, Dakar wt 426 with full fuel. front and rear 8.26 inches, KLR wt 376 with full fuel. 50 lbs diff.  from Advrider

• Dakar cool factor...10+
  KLR cool factor...5+
  
  Questions from chicks at stoplights
  about my Dakar....off scale.
  
  Questions from chicks at stoplights
  about my KLR...non-existent. from Advrider

• I am going to keep this short. Buy a KLR that is 97 & newer. Due to the fact the older ones have trouble with the engine chains. I had a 97 & found it to be an OK bike. Very reliable, but did have its downfalls. I Love my Dakar much better ! Just my thoughts, hope that helps. I'm still on the KLR list & find them to be helpful as well. Rick Bizarro#815

• Go here: http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/PassportPl/texastrails/klr.HTM. And then find the KLR list and ask 'em what they think of F650's. Sven (#984).

• The '97 and later engines have a better counterbalance design. Other than this, and cosmetics, the bikes are basically identical. You'll find the engine and brakes to be less powerful than the BMW's. The KLR is lighter. There are lots of aftermarket goodies available. Try http://www.dualsportnews.com/ for some good basic info. I've had a Funduro, a GSD, and the KLR. Each have their niche, but for offroad use, the KLR is the best, IMO. Harl #380

• I recommend the KLR. I have had both 650GS, and now the KLR. Almost $4000.00 less, and NO problems, No S & S, no early water pump failure, no oil leaks, no BMWNA. Fred

• The KLR is much cheaper in price. It is lighter. It has less power, less acceleration, less top speed. If you are riding solely on dirt roads down into the Copper Canyon or just on Rocky Mtn. Jeep trails, the get a KLR. If you plan on driving for any distance on the highways to get to those places or places of similar ilk, get an F650. If you want to ride 2-up with all your luggage, get an F650. The seat on a KLR is little more than a 2x6 board covered in naugahyde. Steve F6501

• I would investigate the Insurance buy for salvage route first, then check out a Suzuki DR650S (?) before buying a KLR. It's the dual sport the mags have been raving about for a couple of years now. Like the KLR it's more off-road oriented, but it's not GREEN. If you've toured on a DR and a KLR the Dakar will be perfect. And Bert, I've got about half of 14K miles on my Funduro on dirt. It just needed a few mods! David#476

• Hi to all of you. I have been riding a Guzzi Quota this past year. I put 15,000 miles on it since May. Very little of it off road. Prior to that I rode a DR650SE and a KLR650 for many miles. I am 48 and have ridden most of my life. I now reside in NE Nevada and have thousands of miles of dirt roads going everywhere. I yearn to return to a lighter more nimble bike. I just returned from the Long Beach motorcycle show. I went there to look at the Dakar 650, the new Suzuki DL1000, and the Aprilia CapoNord 1000. They are simply street bikes with some big dualie marketing hype. The F650GS Dakar, however really hit my buttons. My only concern would be going on road trips with my significant other on her Guzzi Jackal V1100. She is a new rider and will probably never get over 200-300 miles per day. The rest of the time I will be looking for loops and routes that use a lot of dirt. The F650 appears to be solid enough for touring in relative comfort, is relatively civilized. I toured on the DR and the KLR and it was ok. I also feel that the engine is durable and reliable enough for somebody who is likely to stack up a lot of miles, 15 to 20,000 per year. GuS

• Those are my feelings exactly. The Quota, Tiger, R1150GS, etc are all too big. The KLR, DR, XLR, etc were all wanting in the street dept. The KTM was too harsh for the road. The original Funduro didn't appear to being up to a lot of offroad. The F650GS Dakar looks perfect. If you haven't checked out Tim Bernard's Happy trails web site, do so. He has a full complement of stuff for the F650GS, just not a lot of current photos up yet. Bert

• I am 56 yrs old and have had five Beemers and a KLR. I recently traded my R100GS for a Dakar and it is a wonderful bike. It has no problem running with my R100 plus riding buddies all day long at 80 mph. I can often out do them in the twisties and certainly take some back roads that they cannot keep up or enjoy riding. It is very comfort on long distance touring too. So, hesitate no longer, the Dakar can do it all. Test ride one and feel it for yourself. Bumblebee In TN#702

• I'm 55 and I like it because I can go anywhere I want (places where a regular bike can't go). This includes over curbs and medians if something is blocking my path. Also like it because it is light weight and smoother than a KLR or DR. Will

• I'd like to ask everyone who has gone from a Kawasaki KLR to a F650GS and their reasons for doing so. Presently I ride a KLR which I enjoy very much. For the past few years, however, I have been considering an F650. Went down to the dealership to see them again and feel now may be the time to change. The reason I initially chose a KLR was because it was much more comfortable over the Honda or Suzuki. It also seemed to be more street orientated. Having demonstrated a BMW, however, I found the KLR to be less refined. Those of you who have gone from a KLR to F650, what were your initial impressions? Did the F650 seem smoother and more enjoyable to ride? What about reliability? Depreciation? Does the BMW feel more powerful around town and on the trails? Any regrets? In short, was the BMW worth the extra money. My KLR has been extremely reliable and enjoyable, but I feel the call of an F650! Teranfon.

• Never owned a KLR, but sat on one of those TALL mean greens before at a stealership. I opted for the BMW because it is more street going. You might like the Dakar coming off a KLR better than a GS. Either way I would highly recommend the BMW's. Rotax single is highly refined and bullet proof. These things get ridden hard in every condition and run forever with little fuss. Water pump seals seem to go out at 15,000+ miles but is not a major teardown to replace. Resale is good too as I bought my 97 used for $4,000.00 and have seen them going for $5,000.00. There are lots of accessories available for the F650 also. Mine came with Givi side bags, Tank bag, Taller windshield, Staintune Exhaust system. Again, all for $4000.00 bucks. Had 8,500 miles on it and not a scratch. Try to find you a good used F650 first. You can find some late model bargains out there and most BMW riders take excellent care of their bikes. Mine had been owned by a Lawyer and never off road and garaged. Never even driven in the rain. Try one, I think you will be surprised. Most of the BMW stores will allow test rides. Hope that helps, Doc.

• We Currently have both. The F650GS is the better road bike, has more power, gets the better fuel mileage and my wife is more comfortable on it than the KLR. I am happier with the KLR, probably because I have them for about 10 years. I think change is good. Are you looking for the Dakar or the GS? My choice would be the Dakar. Barb Wire

• I haven't owned a KLR---but have test ridden one many times. I may actually own one some day---but yes the BMW does seem to be smoother and more refined. But in my opinion the KLR really out performs the F650 when the terrain is rougher. But then its the other way around when your on pavement. I'd keep both !!!!! Also-----I think the Dakar comes closer to being good in both worlds. I've had my 97 F since new-----and when my buddy started riding with me on his Dakar----we were riding down and old levy road and he just hauled on that rough stuff---wheelying over water holes. I was a little worried he was going to bust his butt with the street biased tires !!! Mark Sampson #217

• I have owned a few KLR's and last year I went to replace the 97 I owned. It was a tough deciding what to buy, I knew there had to be a better all round bike. I found it in the 00 Dakar. Much more power and no vibration compared to the KLR. As far as fit and finish, well I feel the BMW is much better in that aspect. The poor braking on the KLR, lack of power, soft suspension especially when two up. Don't get me wrong I loved that bike. The 6 gallon fuel tank, that I miss. The Dakar is only 17L, range is around 350 to 375KM . The mileage is excellent though I am averaging around 60+ MPG. As far as touring it is far better by a long shot. The power is amazing on the highway, I took a trip fully loaded and man I was passing vehicles like they where standing still. The Dakar is just as good if not better in dirt than the KLR.  On the down side parts are expensive. You are paying for that brand logo. I feel it is worth the extra few dollars. Rick #815

• I was faced with the same decision 2 weeks ago, I have a KLR 250 for the last 18 months. Yes, it has run faultlessly BUT I looked to replace it with a KLR 650 and decided I wanted something that I could get on, without needing a stepladder and I could sit on the seat for more than 50km at a stretch AND ride 2 up, when needed. The KLR 650 was not the bike....after a few days of research...asking some dumb questions on this forum :-) I bought a new F650GS. The KLR 650 is too dirt orientated for me, I wanted MORE road friendly qualities! I think any of the F650
  models would be a good choice, whether new or s/hand. If you want MORE dirt, just get a Dakar! I had to make a choice.....upgrade my KLR 250 to a "big" KLR OR swap brands......I felt the KLR was too "off roady" for what I wanted, seat height too high and too skinny for long distance road trips. I also have serious reservations about engine life of the KLR and rebuild cost. Resale value is not as good as BMW, my original intention was to buy a s/hand F650 GS, when I saw the prices....I felt better to buy new. Not to mention......all the NET research showed up the F 650 as a good machine. I might add, this forum had a big influence on my decision. Jack, Australia.

• I have owned two KLR's, as well as a DR650 and KTM Adventure and LC4. As far as the KLR/F650Dakar comparison, there really is no comparison except for the price. If the cost is not an issue, the BMW is a far superior bike, at least the Dakar model is, the regular GS might have trouble keeping up to the Dakar's off road prowess due to the smaller front wheel. On road the BMW is quite a bit smoother, much more stable at all speeds, with superior handling and braking. Off road, I have found the BMW to be no problem, and I have taken it on some single tracks, and very rocky uphills. You have to be more mindful of the increased weight, but the frame does not have the flex of the KLR, the suspension is supple and compliant, rarely bottoms, in fact the bike just acts like one piece of equipment instead of the KLR's separate front and rear ends, each having a mind of their own. That is not to say you couldn't fix up the KLR's problems with some of the money you would have saved, and there is that great aftermarket "goodies" pool for the KLR, but for me the F650 Dakar is the Best Adventure Tourer out there. It is better off road then the R80GS, and although, not as relaxing on the highway, probably a better performer there as well. In a little different category, if you want the best "dual purpose" bike, that is, if you are not going long hours on the highway, the DR650 ('96 to present) tops them all for it's off road ability. 90/10 (on/off road) - BMW F650GS (or even R80GS if you can find one), 80/20 to 60/40 - BMW-F650Dakar, 50/50 to 20/80 - DR650 ( post '96). The KLR is a close second in any of the categories, that's why there are so many of them out there, and the Adventure, 640LC4, Transalp, and XL650R are in the hunt, but just don't measure up. Don.

• KLR is more trail and less road capable but will easier and cheaper to get hold of. People always seem to mod them, so see if they match what you want. The F is a better road bike and sounds like it will do what you want. Harder to get and more expensive though. Also, probably not a good bike it you haven't ridden a bike on mud before. Try a 125 before taking a 650 on dirt. KTM's are even more dirt oriented and on top of that are expensive and have fewer dealers and less support. This is the bike if you are planning to try a competition or two and are 7 foot tall. my 2 pence worth. Andy Leeds UK #982

• Having had both, I'd agree with Andy's assessment. The KLR is lighter, taller, more softly sprung, and less powerful. It is much more dirt capable, even beyond gravel roads. The F650 has much more power, can cruise all day at 80 mph, even with a 15T countershaft sprocket (which you'll need for offroad jaunts), handles better on pavement, has better brakes, better finish, and closer to the ground. There are lots off accessories for both bikes, and you can modify them to your heart's content. Harl #380

• There's a reason the most popular dirt bikes are 125/250/400ish cc's - Because 650's are pigs. I'm with Andy, go beat the hell out of a 125 for a while and see if you're an asphalt man or like the taste of dirt. As an owner of both bikes I can attest to the fact that, if you can afford them, the only difference is dirt or asphalt. I can pilot the Dakar (Whitey) anywhere the KLR will go, but you're not in the market for a GSD so that's a moot point. They're both excellent machines. Just decide what type of riding you want to do first. Jason1027 (West Point, UT, US)

• I have a KLR 650 which I like very much , however my wife being only 5'4 couldn't ride because of the the 35inch seat, so we got her a GS650 and I have to say I'm very jealous this bike is awesome. It will dust my KLR. jrsue

• They are stone-axe reliable as long as you take care of all the well known weak areas ahead of time, and assuming you're a pretty good home mechanic. They have been virtually unchanged since their inception. I think they are in their 16th version with only an update to the clutch basket and color changes. It is pretty common knowledge on what "is" going to fail...I have a 94 that is little different than the 02 models sitting on the floor. :>). 94 KLR650, 98 R1100GS, 00 Moto Guzzi Quota, 02 F650GS. Bert

• In the 3 years I've owned my Funduro, I've had few complaints. Compared to my previous KLR650, the BMW is just a dream to own and drive. As for off road capability, I'm not sure there would be much difference as the weight of both is still way up there. My F650 currently has the Metzler Tourance tires on it and they're great -- I'd probably replace the Suzuki tires with those. Alas, I find my normal 75+ MPH treks up the interstate to be a little taxing on the little single. Yeah, yeah, I know, that's not the bikes problem, that's the riders problem. Each time I ride my BMW I think of what a great bike it is in so many areas. I've got the Jesse bags for it and they've proven invaluable in my commuting and weekend adventures. I don't know what I'll do without them until the V-Strom gets hard bags. Maybe Mike Corbin will make some Beetle Bags for the Suzuki. The R1150GS was a consideration but at $14k, I think I'll have to spend the $9k on the Suzuki first. $5k goes a long way toward accessories. The good news is I won't actually be trading in the BMW so I'll have both bikes for a while.  JerryW in VA

• Rode my '99 F650 to work this morning and parked next to a fairly new Kawasaki KLR. I'm sure the Kawa is reliable and solid, but it has the appearance of many pieces thrown together with no regard for the final result. Despite what else I think of BMW as a company, I give them credit for good design work on the Classic F650. After 14,000 miles and two years, it wears well. Bob#550

• A few summers ago I tried several different bikes. I had 2 sv650's a yzf600r and a new KLR. Some were much faster and some were slower than my F. All of those bikes are gone and my F is still here. They were all great bikes but were too narrowly focused to consider them long term for me. Good luck and don't be too quick to sell the Classic. Steve#417(IN,USA)

• I have lived in Idaho and NV and UT for the last 49 years. IMHO, the Dakar represents one of the best ways too see what the West has to offer. We currently have an 02 F650GS,a 94 KLR650 and an R1100GS. I have been so impressed with the F650. I am waiting to replace my KLR with a Dakar. I can actually see where I could get by with just that motorcycle and replace my 1100GS as well. But, I have the wife's GS as second beast of burden when it comes to packing everything we need on an extended tour. Still, I have a lot of time on various dualsports and the Dakar seems to be the clear leader here. Especially if any road touring is an option. The KTM is not a road bike and the Suzuki DR400 is not an option for extended road duty as well. The Dakar is very capable and pretty comfortable at speed as well. If you are able to adjust to the price, you can now consider the ABS option on the Dakar. For only $300 more it may be worth it to you. The opinions on this board may vary, but the cost is not as great as it could be and there is not that much of a weight penalty either. Plus you get pretty attractive rates from BMW and you could load it up with all the other stuff you would want to add anyway. Just a thought. Bert #1131

• The KLR is a thumper. The Suzuki V-Strom is a V-twin. I'm confused as to what exactly is the question. Rider's recent write up on Suzuki convinced me to stay away from it. The KLR is proven reliability, is lighter than the F, and generally gets good reviews. The KLR charging system is inadequate to support the stuff serious long distance dual sporters seem to need. And it lacks the extensive aftermarket support enjoyed by all BMW's, including the F. The KLR is a tall mount. If you are vertically challenged, it will demand some interesting adjustments. The scuttlebutt around the coffee pots and hang-outs I frequent is that BMW's days as a quality product seem to a thing of the past. As a result, KLR's market share is growing simply because the people can get a reliable product for a $5,000 out the door price. Rick in AL.

• Having owned both machines I can say the Dakar is far superior. Power, handling, comfort, all better. If you get the chance, just look at the build quality...frame, swingarm, handlebars, etc. The Dakar is heavier but stronger. Plus I have ABS and it's great on-road. The 3yr/36k warranty versus 1yr/unlimited is another point. I've heard the stories of "dealing with the dealers", but I deal with Engle Motors in KC and have never had a bad experience. Knowledgeable and courteous people. On the other hand, I toured, camped, did 400+ mile days in all kinds of weather on my KLR and never had a problem. The after market support for the KLR I think is better just because it's been around for so long. Aftermarket for the Dakar should get even better. I am actually looking for another KLR for commuting as I live just 5 miles from work and want to save miles on my Dakar. Long-winded I know. Dakar, better bike. KLR, cheaper bike.  Beemdubya on Advrider

• This depends on whether you think a logo, cool graphics, and a slightly lower center of gravity are worth the extra cash ($3000 US). I mean the XR650L, DR650, Suzuki/Kawasaki DRZ400, and the KLR650 are all significantly cheaper. I would say that the KLR650 is closest to the 650 Dakar in capabilities, but some might argue that. Hey, $3600 (or the difference in CDN) will go a long way towards mods and gear, right? What about a test drive? Try and ride the ones you're interested in. I was very seriously considering an F650 Dakar earlier this summer, but have opted for the KLR650 because of price and performance. The online community is also a huge plus. Very good information about the KLR and parts are cheap and readily available. BTW, I was offered an 3 yr extended warranty by Kawa for $450, which would have put the total warranty at 4 years. I didn't take it, but have the option as long as at least one month remains on the factory warranty. So, the warranty on at least kawa's shouldn't be an issue. rgbman on Advrider.

• If you are doing more street than dirt, get the Dakar or KLR...but...if you really want to fly in the dirt......KTM. jimjib

• Speaking as a KTM owner, there are only three problems: Parts, parts and parts. Seems KTM does not want to stock anything on this side of the pond, and whatever you need comes on a slow boat from Austria. And they also seem to include the cost of the boat in the parts prices. The KLR is a venerable classic...if you can live with its looks. One really big difference between the KLR and F650 is weight/balance/cg. The KLR carries that big oil drum of a tank waaaaay up high, while the BMW tucks the fuel weight under your butt. This will give the F650 a lower, more centralized center of gravity, improving handling both on and off road. My free advice, worth every penny. I have ridden along with KLR's on offroad stuff, and I would have to argue with your ranking there. I could see no area where a KLR is superior to the Dakar (except maybe parts prices if you engage in soil sampling.) Also: The fuel location discussed above has a big impact offroad, especially when you get to first-gear, up-on-the-pegs stuff. One caveat to consider when comparing the Dakar to anything else offroad: The stock Dakar will have pretty mush power response which will be a hindrance offroad. But uncork a Dakar and the dirt/trail rideability improves immensely. Much snappier response, especially off the bottom. Much easier wheelies when need. Uncork = cut the snorkle, pull the cat baffle, and add a Techlusion box and K&N air filter. Easy job with about $250 invested. HUGE improvement.  DakotaDakar.

• The KLR's claimed Dry weight is 88lbs less than the Dakar. I think the suspension travel on the KLR is a little longer but not as trick as the Dakar's. The weight difference and the larger gas tank sold me on the KLR. IMO the KLR is better offroad. All great bikes you just need to figure out what works best for you. Kevin. '01 KLR, '95 Tiger.

• KLR's have been around for 14+ years, virtually unchanged. My KLR already looks sorry after one too many flips and crashes but I have confidence that it will get me there and back. There are examples on the KLR list that have over 90,000 miles on the engine without rebuild. Not what I would consider a "throw away" bike. Later, Kevin on Advrider.

• I've been wondering, what are the comparative strengths and weaknesses you know between different thumpers. I have my trusty '93 Kawasaki KLR 650 and just bought an '02 F650 Dakar. The dealer, who isn't BMW only, but of several brands, seemed very interested in selling me a KTM Lc4 Adventure instead of my Dakar. Ultimately I chose the D because most of my riding (90%) is on-road, mostly city, some twisties and even some multi-lane highways, wich in Mexico are pretty much speed limitless (not nice when your bike tops out @ around 100mph, and lots of cages with cell phones for drivers will easily cruise at 110+ ). Anyway, what with ABS and all that I figured that for me the better choice would be the D, however I'm concerned with reliability, the KLR was (is) *dead-reliable* even after a couple of unhappy encounters with subcompact cages, and from what I've read the D might not be as stout. Also, am I right in my assumption that the KTM is intended for more dirt - less road than the D? Over these first 5000km I've been very, very happy with the Beemer, but I am a bit scared of the possible repair costs and FI headaches some people seem to have. Thumper on Advrider

• I have 5,000ks on my 2002 Dakar and it has run great. I ride about 75% road and found that on roads here in New Zealand is has right power. All my advice would be is enjoy the bike. There are some that are never happy. I may look at up grading to the 1150gsa in about 12 months as I do a lot of 2 up riding, but the size of the bike may be too big for the our adventure riding in New Zealand. KiwiDakar

• Don't worry, the Rotax engine of the 650GS is even more robust than the KLR. Some surging and stalling plagued the EFI until mid 2001: you should be fine with the 2002 you have. I have mine with 8,000 miles on it (runs perfectly) and for what you describe about your riding it seems a better choice than the KTM. Jean-Luc

• I thought I was ready to pull the trigger and buy a new KLR 650, then I made the mistake of riding a 01 F650GS. The realities of life being what they are-about $4,000 would be my absolute limit to spend on a used bike. Which way should I go??? I do my own maintenance, 25 mile daily commute(4 miles on Oklahoma red dirt), 2 or 3 long trips a year, and am a cheapskate. Only other important details I can think of is the BMW gives me that silly little grin I first got after riding a MC again after 15 years! Have been enjoying reading this forum for several weeks now and have enjoyed it. Thanks. Oh yeah-anyone out there want to buy a 78 Goldwing or an 86 750 Interceptor to help expedite this purchase? Keith in OK

• Had both. Kept the KLR. A lot depends on what type of riding you want it for. If you are doing mostly street, get the GS. More offroad, go with the KLR. Own maintenance is kind of a wash, except for the FI. Cheapskate - KLR. Two up probably goes to the GS. Lots of accessories for both, probably a slight edge to the KLR. You might pose the same question to one of the KLR message boards... http://www.boards.gamers.com/messages/overview.asp?name=KLR650 IMO, keep the Interceptor and get the KLR. Harl #380.

• Is family important? Only kidding....... you have an instant family when you ride BMW's. The answer to your question lies in the bikes intended purpose. The Kaw is more dirt oriented and a better bang for the buck. The BMW is not a dirt bike; it is a dirt road bike, so if you do mostly street riding , I'd opt for the BMW. They are both competent machines for their intended use. Steve#1059 in MA

• I know a guy with a KLR who dearly wants a BMW. I know of another guy with a KLR who will be picking up a 2003 Dakar at the end of the month. Like the others said, the KLR is probably better on technical dirt, weighing about 100 pounds less than the BMW. I've logged all day trips on freeway at 75+ mph on my Dakar, with little more than gas stops, and arrived at my destination feeling not too tired at all. I've also taken it on some ancient jeep roads (read: rocky ledges), and had a blast. But I've never ridden a KLR ......As for cost, at 0.9% financing, doing a loan through BMW on a new GS might be better than using your own cash! Scott, ID '02 Dakar

• With the screaming deals you can get on a used F650 with low miles, I'd go with the BMW. You may have to look around and travel a few hundred miles to get a F650, but its worth it,IMHO. DaveJ#888 99 F650(mine) & 97 F650(Donna's)

• The way I see it. If you want to mostly ride dirt and rode less often. Buy the KLR. If you want to ride mostly road and go in the dirt less often. The BMW is one heck of a road bike. Works good in the dirt. Spend LOTS of money on it and it gets better. I am sure DHP's Dakar is a very nice dirt bike but. I love my Dakar but if dirt riding was what I was after I would do something else. Steve 1130 Or

• The GS is a gorgeous machine and zips around as you want it to. It has the bulk and weight for high speed comfort. The KLR is just plain ugly. Art 884

• I just sold my 2000 KLR after two years of constant engine problems. Water pump seals, automatic compression release problems, and electrical problems made my experience with this bike very unpleasant. I would not wish a KLR on my worst enemy. I am looking at a Dakar or DR650 for a replacement sometime in 03. Some people seem to be getting good service from KLR's, but mine was a piece of junk. camonett

• FWIW, a friend of mine with a 1 year old KLR (8000 miles on it) just had to get the whole top end of his bike replaced because the cylinder was "out of round"(?). On the positive side, he did get it replaced under warranty but he's had the bike in and out of a couple of different shops for several months. I have a new 2003 Dakar with only 450 miles on it and have had no problems so far. No surging, either. Nemo

• Yeah, I was considering the KLR before I bought my Dakar. After sitting on both, the choice was not a problem. I doubt that you'll get out the door with a new KLR for $4,000, probably closer to $5,000. Go back and sit on that KLR. I think that you will be disappointed after sitting on the F650GS. Oh sure, you won't have to stop at the gas station as often with that huge tank, but you also won't have that silly grin on your face either. Get the F650GS, hey you could probably even find one with ABS. Warren #1219, Pacifica, CA

• Some people seem to be getting good service from KLR's, but mine was a piece of junk. Generally, the Japan stuff is pretty good and for $5k new, it is a good value if that is the type of bike you want. You just got a lemon But , you can buy two KLR's for one GS. The choice is all yours. Good luck with whatever you choose. Steve#1059 in MA

• I agree with you Steve. I'm just a bit frustrated. This past summer Dr Greg Frazier rode around the world on a specially-prepared KLR. He had little to no trouble. My bike was a lemon. However, for anyone thinking of buying a KLR650 you should know of a problem with the chain-driven counter balancer system. Go to the KLR650 yahoo group and search for posts on the problem. Bikes with only a few thousand miles have been known to toss the counter balancer chain and wreck the engine. There is an inexpensive fix that has been developed. See the FAQ site here: http://www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html I just stumbled across this group while looking for information on the Dakar. I have yet to ride one but it sounds like what I am looking for. One question: Do you think BMW will offer 0.9% financing on the 2003 Dakar later on in the year? camonett

• Have you considered a "classic" F650? I got mine a year 2000 for a great price and with carburettors it's somewhat easier to work on then the FI models. Another BIG plus is this web site! I suppose the KLR folks have some pages to look at but it couldn't be nearly what is here. The work put into this club and it's FAQ's is monumental, thanks again to all it's contributors and Steve. Good Ride'N Bill. Will in CA

• Remember, the KLR only gets 35-45 mpg in most conditions. My wife's F650GS got 56 on a high speed run (85mph) thru a thunderstorm with head winds, my KLR got 36. The extra fuel is all carried up high where it is very noticeable. The F650GS is a better handling bike and has nearly the same range, and has way better power. The KLR is the least horsepower out there. It is a 15 year old design. Bert bwfox Chaingang Member #1131.02 F650GS, (Wife's) 03 F650 Dakar

• As Bert hinted in a response in the "General Discussion" forum, the KLR is not a $4,000 Dakar. Bert listed some of the KLR deficiencies, and I just wanted to add that I spoke to a KLR owner last summer and he said the same exact thing about the floppy suspension, etc. Echoing Bert's note, he too said you will spend $2,000 beyond the price of a new KLR just to make it rideable. Scott, ID #1244

• There is a glowing report on the KLR 650 at: http://www.motorcycledaily.com/. The reviewer didn't find anything wrong with the bike except for its high seat height and cheap turn-signal switch. I think I could have found a few other things to complain about. But I agree that the MSRP of $4,999 is reasonable for what you get - as long as you are not too demanding about quality, power or braking. Richard #230: 1997 Funduro, 2002 R1150R, 2002 Yamaha YZ1, 1993 Honda CB750 - Pacifica, CA, USA

• Huh? Let me get this straight: two people who own the KLR tell me the same thing. The same thing, right down the the floppy suspension, to the weak brakes, to the poor fuel economy, etc. One person is a personal acquaintance, the other a web-based acquaintance who I know has an experienced opinion. So, I share an insight from a personal acquaintance, who has owned 2 KLR's and prefers the BMW, and suddenly I'm passing unfounded gossip? Sorry if what I've been told by KLR owners is contrary to your experience, and I know the web can be full of sh$t, but I think your little quip is misguided. I've never actually HIT a deer at 60 mph, but I've "heard/read" from others that it really sucks, and should anyone ask me, I'll encourage them to avoid it if possible. Scott, ID #1244

• I posted my personal experiences. I didn't know how good your information was, hence the quip. I've had no problems at all with the KLR, fewer than the Dakar I owned. Any changes I made to the KLR I likely would have made to the Dakar as well, as I found the front suspension to have the same marginal characteristics. I gave the BMW credit where I felt it was due. Given my experiences, I prefer the KLR. Harl #380

• My comments were directed at the bike road test reviewer. I have several friends with KLR's, one who has ridden his over 60,000 miles and loves it. However, he has a number of the usual complaints, some of which he puts up with and others that he fixed over time. I felt that the bike reviewer could have found a few other things on a 15-year old bike design that he should have mentioned were worth being upgraded by the factory. (That is certainly the case with my 10-year old design Honda Nighthawk.) Keep in mind that we are comparing the F650 with the KLR. Richard #230

• I got my KLR650 in 87, the first year they came out. At that time I had 5 other motorcycles. I liked to ride the KLR so much that I got rid of my Gold Wing and my VT500, I just always rode the KLR. I had problems with fuses and headlights blowing, and the gas tank mount broke, but other than that, it served me well till I traded it for about 13,000 miles. I rode it in the sand whoops in MI and the CO mountain trails as well as in many AMA National Dual Sport events (w/wife on back). I traded it in on a 93 XRL650 because I preferred off-road performance. After going through 3 rear shocks on the XRL, I went to a 97 XR600 for the dirt and a 96 DRSET650 Suzuki as my street ride. In July of 01 I got my Dakar, I've rode it more in the time I've hade it than all of the other bikes put together. The main reason I have rode it so much more, is it is just so nice to ride and works so well. The Dakar is very comfortable and I did over 2000 miles of the Trans Am Trail on it. I don't think the Dakar is a great dirt bike, but it does long miles of gravel and dirt roads better than anything I've ridden yet. I like the Dakar better than any other bike I've owned, and I think I've had 36 bikes before this one. A co-worker of mine just bought a new KLR650, and I think he made a good choice. He is a new rider, and the KLR will be a great bike for him. That's my 10 cents worth. gwhis

• I have to say about the same as above. I have had 2 KLR's and when I seen the Dakar fell in love with it. Had a few problems at first with the Dakar, the usual Stalling and Surging. After 17000Km I found it to be the best all round bike I have ever owned. Did many long distance trips without a problem or a worry. I could never do that on the KLR. Found it to be a good dirt bike as well. Just have to adjust your riding style. This summer I traded the Dakar in on a r1150 Adventure and that is where I will stay. I don't want to start off on another subject but for a person that has owned way too many bikes {that's what my wife says } I have found what I have always wanted. If you have the extra money go with the GS or Dakar. Way better fit and finish as well as the extra piece of mind of three year warranty, versus one year on the KLR. I figure you won't go wrong. I have a friend that spent as much gearing up his KLR as I did purchasing the Dakar. This is my 2 cents worth for all its worth. Rick#815

• Seriously, I think we've shown here that the KLR is deservedly a popular bike, and very dependable when you get a good one. Back when I just got out of high school I bought a 1979 Honda Prelude, and every blasted part on that car was nothing but crap. I had to fix EVERYTHING. It left me stranded several times. I swore I'd never buy another Honda, and I haven't. The next year (1980) my mother bought the same make and year, and she still drives it; best car she ever had. I say buy whatever moves you. Scott, ID #1244

• I'm in a similar situation as Keith ... looking into an f650gsd. I currently ride a '95 KTM 620 - very aggressive off-road bike. Performs unreal in dirt & is very strong on the street, but not very comfortable for long road rides. I'm finding I spend more miles getting to off-road trails than I do on the trails themselves & the f650gsd seems like a good compromise. The KLR is a lot of bike for the money, but I continue to hear mixed reviews about durability... plus it's kinda ugly & I can't see dropping $4-5k on something that performs good, but looks odd. inte

• KLR been there done that. Dangerous in stock form. I spent 1700 on my new KLR and had a good dual sport. This is not a good highway (interstate) machine in any form. Steve#417(in,us)

• Dang, dude, you must have really screwed yourself somehow on the KLR to have such a hard-on for them... Dangerous in stock form? Pull your head out, my man... Mine runs okay on the interstate, but, as stated, it's more offroad oriented than my '99 Classic ever could be. Harl #380

• I considered both when I bought my F a year ago. KLR is taller, uglier and less comfortable. And for anyone under 6 feet, it's a one-foot stand when stopped. Can't get both feet on the ground unless it's been lowered. Ian

• 1st impression:  Mars and I went for a little ride on Sunday. He made me ride his new Katoom. Well, lemme tellya, everybody says the first thing you notice about the bike is how tall it is. Baloney. The first thing you notice about the bike is the motor. What a mill!. Come off idle and it's crankin' four grand. That's over 45 mph in third on a sand road. Open the throttle from there and the rear tire spins. Oh, and this bike has a wheel sprocket four teeth smaller than stock. With the standard sprocket, these things must be all burnouts and wheelies. I can't tell you anything more about rpm or speed because I was too busy trying to pay attention to where I was drivin' this guy's spotless, shiny, alubox-clad, orange and silver missile. I felt a lot more vibration than on the KLR, especially throughout the seat, frame and pegs. More a buzz than a shake. The KTM revs so high and so quickly that it seems more like a twin than a single. If this is the new face of thumpers, we need another name. This is nothing like an old single, say, a BSA 441.
  
  The next thing I noticed was how firm the suspension is. I expected a supple, compliant but well-damped ride. What I got was a firmly compliant well-damped ride. Crisp. Eager to respond to steering input. Very controllable. In other words, oriented towards going fast rather than comfort, but quite comfortable.
  
  What's with that clutch? John tells me that the long travel required for the clutch lever is a known bug. And you have to use it, too. Unlike my KLR, or an XR, the Katoom gearbox wants full clutch disengagement before offering a different gear.
  
  The biggest surprise the KTM's minuscule visual profile from the saddle. That front end that looks so enormous from the side almost disappears from view once you're on the bike. The cockpit is more cramped than the KLR. The bulge-type handlebar felt identical to the Windham replica Renthal I have on the KLR, but the KTM puts you much closer to it. The entire grip-saddle-peg triangle is smaller, and the pegs and saddle are higher relative to the ground and the handlebars compared to the KLR. I can't say I noticed the saddle at all, but then I was only on the bike for a short time. Haven't been feeling altogether on my game, so I didn't want to push my luck on John's beautiful still-new bike.
  
  For reference, John, who owns two KLR's, said he found my bike to be one of the best set-up, smoothest, and most powerful KLR's he'd ridden. Aw, shucks, I just put RaceTech cartridge emulators in the forks with 10wt oil, yanked all the extra crap off the bike (well, most of it), and set the shock on soft. The motor is stone stock, but I keep it revving. And change the oil every 3,000 miles.
  
  First, I didn't ride the KTM on the highway. The power would be big fun there, the vibration bad. Can't say for sure, but I bet that the suspension would provide better handling, more confidence, more stability, maybe less susceptibility to winds, better sense of the front wheel than the KLR. That's largely conjecture on the one hand, but on the other, it's unlikely that it would be frikkin' worse than the KLR.
  
  Second, how are you built? Comfort on the KTM requires short arms and long legs.
  
  Third, the KTM is gorgeous and the build quality is very good. The KLR is cheap ugly junk. Styling is mostly subjective, but who would argue about which bike is better looking? Is that important to you?
  
  Fourth, how do you want to ride? The KLR will hammer pretty good, and putt along pretty happily. The KTM wants to go Go GO! It will purr along, but it's champing at the bit. Unquestionably a sharp-edged tool, as I've heard it described, intended to be ridden aggressively. It will no doubt reward the aggressive, capable rider with unspeakably superior performance.
  
  Fifth, the three large. A KLR with 7k miles isn't discernibly different from one that you rolled out the dealership door and rode for two weeks. Except you can get a KLR with 5-10k miles on it for $3,000 or less. I can't imagine buying a KLR new. It's a lot harder to find a KTM used, harder still to be confident in its condition--they can be expected to be more sensitive to maintenance.
  
  So, is it worth the considerable premium? I'd say it really boils down to this: Do you want to get there, or do you want to get there first (and look fabulous, dahling)? Stephen
  
  KTM Adventure dry weight 339lbs, Front suspension travel 10.6 inches, Rear suspension travel 13.39 inches, Even if the Dakar is "only" 50 lbs heavier that is more than 10% even at full fuel capacity, which is significant in technical off-road situations. from Advrider

• 2002 Dakar Participation. The Touratech bikes are BMW F650GS series bikes which use the engine, DME, gearbox, frame (but not the subframe), and cooling (radiator) from the bike. That's it. The rest of the bike is all different components from the fuel tanks (3 to be exact), to the sub-frame, to the cockpit, controls, lights, suspension, wheels, tires, everything. BMW AG has had a hard time recognizing that their basic bikes can be used as a platform for people who want to build race bikes. You have to buy a whole bike and disassemble it to build a Touratech Rallye (designed by Richard Schalber from his experience in building the F650RR). These bikes while capable of doing Rallyes and the Dakar are no match for the KTM factory single bikes which have a better engine development program (top speed counts!). They are also bigger/heavier than the KTM's. Many privateers are now running the Touratech bike as it has nice features overall and we (Touratech Rallye owners) all share some (but not all) technical development details to make our bikes better (about 40 owners worldwide). Didier Py is the Touratech Team rider. The team is managed/guided by Raymond Loizeaux an experienced Dakar competitor (18 times) and team member of BMW's winning team in the 80s (one of the teams). BMW has totally dropped the Rallye racing effort. They believe that the Dakar is a waste of time and money for the coverage and sales benefits that they get because they aren't competing against their competition (Honda, Kawasaki, etc.). They are too snobby and don' regard KTM as competition. The racing director at BMW, Berti Hauser loves road racing and the direction is to continue on with the Boxer Cup a BMW 100% controlled marketing event where in every race a BMW wins. The BMW team of the past few years is disbanded. John Deacon died in the Master's Rallye, Andrea Mayer is riding for KTM (she rode the F650RR anyways which wasn't the central point of the racing program), Cyril Despres is without a ride (last time I checked), Nani Roma is at KTM (but isn't politically the favorite), and Jimmy Lewis is looking to race Dakar from 2003 onward given that he is backed by a good program. On the last point I am organizing a motorsports team to sponsor Jimmy and we're working on getting the bikes and sponsors together. We plan to use BMW as Jimmy loves the power of the twin. I know HPN and the other necessary people required to do it and spent 3 months in Europe in the beginning of this year to get the effort underway. FYI - Michael Griep is an old hand at Rallye racing as are most of the riders you mentioned. You don't have Patrick Lambin a Luxembourg/Belgian rider who rides and F650 Touratech as well. Too many details about the politics, marketing, and money regarding the Dakar to go into here so I'll refrain. but in answering your question, yes the Touratech Schalber is a BMW if you consider the power plant and engine electronics - it's not a BMW from the perspective of everything else though. Simplest way for you to see all of this is to review the assembly instructions at: http://www.vmar.com/touratech/f650/. davidhpark, #711

• Been on Beemers for 30 years and find the 650 very neat! I've owned others, too. KTM, Honda, Yamaha, mostly dirt. Two 650 Yamaha's('72 and '75), which were very tough bikes, but very uncomfortable. First BMW was R75/5('72). R80GS,R100/7,R1100GS. Still have the R100/7 and consider it one of BMW's best, ever! First year for the 1000's and last year for the / series. Also a one year model, late '77,'78 R100/7. Actually a year and a half model! BMW wanted to make a big splash with their first 1000cc bike in '78 and did them right....Are not many one year models from BMW, but others are the R75/7,R60/7 in 1977. Rare! Sorry for the history, getting carried away. Randy748

• I would describe my off-pavement riding as basically falling into three categories:
  
  1. Trail riding in one of the areas designated for off-road vehicles near the area where I live. Much of this would be quite difficult with a F650, at least as ridden by me - I'm far from a highly skilled dirt rider.
  
  2. Dirt National Forest Roads (never leaving the roads and observing the "Tread Lightly" concept). The F650 does fine in this situation.
  
  3. Desert riding, such as in the Death Valley area or in Baja, again staying on "roads" such as they are. Although technically roads, some of these are not what most of us would consider a "road." The F650 is fine for much of this, but some situations - deep sand washes, steep inclines, rocky ledges, etc. - can be difficult.
  
  For the more demanding dirt riding, I have a KTM 520EXC, which weighs under 250 lb. (dry) and is far better than it's rider. I have both the KTM Adventure and F650GS in my garage at the moment, but must confess that I'm only storing the KTM for a friend. However, based on some exposure to the two of them, and agreeing with what has already been posted, very simply the F650 is much the better street bike, the KTM considerably the better off-pavement mount. I would personally hate to long distance tour on the KTM, although it could be, and has been, done. And, I would personally hate to tackle really difficult dirt terrain with the BMW which the KTM could handle relatively easily, although that certainly can be done with the BMW also. To me, the fun factor for pavement is much higher with the BMW, and for off-pavement, it's higher with the KTM.
  
  The in-development KTM L8 twin, which will be produced in both the Adventure and Duke models, may change all of this. It's likely to be a fascinating machine.
  
  If my memory is correct, BMW actually won the Dakar rally two years ago with a 650 single based machine, highly modified as already mentioned above. Then last year BMW went with twins only with disastrous results (highest finish was something like 6th), and subsequently decided to stop competing in the rally altogether. Totally dropping the bike which won never seemed to make a lot of sense and I don't understand why BMW made this decision. Mike #926.

• I currently ride a KTM 400, for off road, but I have ridden the Dakar in very rough terrain and I'm very happy what the BMW DAKAR can do with a lot of effort (compared with the much lighter KTM)
  for example. Leoncio

• I had KTM when I was doing Enduros in Europe and they're great for that. When I had to decide between buying my Dakar or the 640 Adventure I really hesitated. But, even if I love dirt, I'm still doing most of my miles on pavement and the Dakar was a better compromise. Also, I got many warnings about parts availability: I use my bike everyday and I don't want to get stuck several weeks waiting for parts. That said, if I had to race the Paris-Dakar, then I will certainly do it with a KTM. Different use -> different bike. JL

• When I was buying my F650GS the local KTM/ Honda dealer (old friend from classic racing) dropped by the BMW dealer. I asked him if I rather ought to buy a KTM and he told me he would not sell me one as he knew I would not be satisfied with it. He know my riding habit- 4/5 road and 1/5 "fun" offroad. No competition. He had tried a 650GS for nearly 1 month and hoped KTM could come up with something like it. Mind you this was in August 2000, I do not know what the new KTM's are like. haakon #626(Norway-F650GS)

• I've had both and still have the F650. Road king is the F650 and Dirt king is KTM. They don't compare in weight or comfort. F650 is comfortable, but heavy compared to KTM. I used my KTM for the hard core dirt riding, where the F650 might go, but with great amount of work, due to its weight. I still ride my F650 off road and it does fine for touring off road and is by far the superior BMW for this. R1150's are wannabe's, compared to F bikes. I think the KTM quality is way high, right even with anything BMW produces. The F650's did compete in P/D race for a few years, but these were factory spec'd and nothing like the consumer model. (much lighter, too). KTM and F bike entry's were very close to the finish! Randy748

• I've owned two 620's, a 95 RXC and a 97 RXCE electric/kick start. I've been on longer trips and the seats are ass-busters. They are totally superior off-road and much lighter. Very fast with a pipe and carb, makes the F650's seem sluggish (sorry). Very easy to power slide at speed or loft the wheel at near-will. The KTM gets my vote if you're a horsepower junkie and want a better trail bike. The F650GSA I've built for my wife is the most comfortable bike I've ever owned. All day can be no-problem. I test ride it occasionally and find it can be trail ridden, although not aggressively as the KTM. The BMW gets my vote if you want a sport bike that can be an excellent fire road bike. Regarding the LC8 Duke, I'm waiting with anticipation for it as a possible replacement for my Gran Canyon. Iceman 975 Willits, Ca. 01 GSA

• I just met KTM's CEO at the Dakar. Very very impressive person. He's dedicated to the business having bought it as a turn-around project and is now steaming ahead on all cylinders (make that two cylinders as in the LC8). IMO - there's nothing like innovative management aptly rewarded for paying attention to the customer base as well as the technical product innovation. KTM as a company has earned major new points in my book and compared to BMW they really have their stuff together. Drop a line to BMW with the invite although I doubt that they'll go. Davidhpark, #711

• I just bought a 2001 KTM LC4 for real dirt duty. I just don't want to bust my 2 F's up off road. I will still do easy stuff with them. The KTM has all molded plastic bodywork and is 110 pounds lighter. Steve#417(IN,USA)

• FWIW, I don't think *anyone* is big enough to manhandle the Dakar around. I've taken my Dakar into some stuff that I thought was pretty hairy-muddy ruts that I couldn't see the bottom of (and ended up being in water up to the cases), long whoop-filled sandy trails, berms through forests, and over trees that made me glad I had the engine bars. Of course, being on the Dakar, as opposed to a KTM 300 EXC, made them a lot hairier. And no, you can't go as fast in the woods as you'd be able to on a WR426. But that's not the point, I think. The ride I described above was the Big Woods 200, a dual-sport rally held north of Green Bay in Wisconsin. At that rally, there were close to 100 riders, and most of them were on XR 400s, DR 400s, and otherwise serious dirt machinery. There was also me, on my Dakar with shagged-out Saharas mounted, a seriously quick fellow on a KTM LC4, and one fellow from Texas who rode an R100GS on Metzeler lasers. (and rode there from Texas!) Although all of the bikes had to be street-legal, I'll give you one guess as to who the only three riders were who rode there, instead of trailering. I really like off-road, but off-road areas are often located in places that I'd really like to ride on the bike, instead of in a car. I like being able to crank around in the twisties on the way back from the trail. Yes, I want it all, and I want it now. ;) This bike doesn't do everything perfectly, not by a long shot. But I really like its strengths, and can live with the weaknesses. Robin #790 Chicago '01 GSD

• DR is better dirt bike! F650 will do very well, however and goes most places with more weight vs. DR. Probably about 50-75 pounds difference. Knobby tires will make huge difference if serious about off road, but road manners will suffer. The 19 inch front on standard 650 makes finding knobs pretty difficult. Dual sport tires are easy. The BIG difference between the two bikes is, comfort level is higher on the F650 and long road days are not bothersome, as the DR will kill you in this category! I ride off road with extensive experience and find my F650 very adequate for adventure touring off road, fully packed with all my camping gear. It is no motocrosser, but goes and goes and goes, like the bunny! My serious dirt ride was a KTM until recently and it was a real serious dirt bike, bar none. No street manners! Randy748/Calif.

• KTM's are very good motorcycles across the range. The company has great management which listens to it's customers and produces high quality goods which meets their needs. They are committed to a racing program which enhances the machine and the market. Go ride any one of their bikes and you'll see what you're missing. While not the comfort cruiser/surprise cornering/quasi dual sport that the BMW Funduro/F650GS has turned out to be - each motorcycle in the KTM line as a specific purpose which is more or less reached or exceeded by the machine. Davidhpark, #711

• I own a KTM 520 EXC and have a good friend who owns a 640 Adventure R, and I would second David Park's remarks above, which I think are very accurate. I don't believe the twin has reached the market yet. My dealer says probably not until next year. Mike #926, Calif.

• I just purchased a KTM LC4. This thing is a hardcore dual sport machine. I bought it strictly for dualsport rides and will not be putting in much road time as torture sets in quickly on the road. Put some dirt in the way and you are in for a good time. Steve#417(IN,USA)

• Just bought a 2002 KTM adventure R...think I made a mistake and should have bought the 650 Dakar...the comfort just isn't there. I just don't like the seating position and crappy wind protection. I also really like the feeling of sitting in the bike not on it like the the KTM. Maybe I am crazy but I'm talking to the dealer tomorrow about trading it in. For high speed, balls out, fly through the desert the KTM, with its longer travel suspension, is the best but for all around performance...I think the Beemer wins. I have a 2002 adventure R and like I said above, I am trading it in for a 650 Dakar. In my opinion, the KTM is way too focused for a true dual sport machine....at least the way I think about a dual sport. I guess I think about the F650 like my old1100gs....a bike that can take you almost anywhere, at a reasonable pace...and do it in comfort. I have been kicking around the idea of trading my 2002 KTM adventure R for a 650 Dakar. The KTM is a wonderful bike when the going gets serious, but just doesn't have the street comfort I know I'm going to need. I haven't decided for sure about this but if anyone is interested drop me a line and lets talk. 400 miles of street. On the KTM would be tough...maybe I'm getting soft in my old age. It looks to me like the Dakar would go anywhere the KTM could, but at a slower pace. Imagine a set of wp's on the front and rear of the Dakar....now you would have something. JimJib on Advrider.

• The KTM adventure needs the BMW F650 (carb model) motor very badly. Mark Sampson #217 "Big Dog"

• Use the force... err... the search function up on the right top corner. Enter KTM and search the body field and you'll find exactly what you're looking for from past posts. I think the majority came down to the same argument as one for a highly modified, lifted/locked Jeep versus a bone stock LR Discovery or Grand Cherokee. One will take you to the trail in comfort, get you home in comfort and do ... oh... 85-90% (maybe more/less) of the same trails as the highly modified Jeep while the highly modified Jeep is more specialized for extreme trails and such. Guess it depends on how much trail riding you do and how far you have to go to get there. I rode the Mojave Rd. last December and while the 'road' can be transferred by just about any 4WD drive with only minor inconveniences for clearance, I had a 400-mile ride home at the end of a long day on the trail. The Dakar was comfortable for that and did the road fine except for the obvious operator errors, i.e. eating sand. Gerry #951 (Phoenix AZ).

• Besides the GS the only other real off-road BIG bike that I see coming down the road will be the KTM twin (which will eat the GS for lunch and then some). davidhpark, #711

• I rode the Cal Poly Hi Mountain Dual Sport ride last Sunday. The Cal Poly Penguins MC (student club) did a great job with the 125 mile ride with 300 riders participating. We started at the campus and made a big loop over the mountains to the southeast through national forest dirt roads and several excursions into private ranch sections with single track trails. It was about 50/50 dirt/street overall. The countryside is green this time of year with lots of wildflowers... really nice. Fun Stuff: My '01 Dakar worked a lot better now that it has MT-21 knobbies. The Hi Mountain fire road was a blast! Creek crossings like the "Wash-your-bike" BMW TV ad. (well almost). I think I was the only one of the 300 riders on a BMW so I got a lot of lookers. Most had a KTM, Suzuki, or Honda XR... all light weight dirt bikes. I blew them away on the paved sections. Problems: Weight, Weight, Weight. Some guys asked me how much the Dakar weighs... I told them "400 pounds... its like riding with an invisible passenger sitting on your bike." (compared to their bikes which are about 275 pounds). So, wisely, I skipped two of the more difficult ranch sections. No fun trying to pick up a 400 lb bike stuck on the side of a hill. One had steep off-camber uphill trails with manzanita bushes that even gave experts trouble. I did get through some of the mellower ranch sections and got a thumbs-up greeting from a few riders resting along the way. The only other problem I had was that my tank bag started bouncing around a lot after I stuffed my jacket in it. Better to keep the bag light or take it off. Overall I had a great time. I was glad I skipped the really tough sections, otherwise it may have been no fun. Jim#1022 Aptos CA

• I am thinking of buying a used 2000 KTM Adventure R. Don't worry, I 'm keeping the Dakar. The bike I am interested in is in the Baltimore area, I'm near Boston, 10 hours away. Is there anyone on the list that could check out the bike for me? Not a complete check-out, but someone who could swing by for a once over and look for serious mechanical deficiencies? Chris #1073 in Groton, MA

• You might also check out the KTM V-twin - LC8 - not in North America yet, but coming soon. I've been looking at several of their models - very impressive line-up. Competent bikes from all accounts. The V-twin is 950cc. See www.ktmusa.com for N AM and www.ktm.co.at for the Austrian home site. And, of course, there's the Triumph Tiger. Ahh, the Tiger... beautiful, powerful, comfortable... tad heavy, and high, but nonetheless worthy of investigation. ichadwick - Canada #1062

• The new big KTM would definitely be a great look see, but the biggest problem for the KTM's has been their comfort level for long distance riding. They simply don't make them right for touring, like the F650's. If KTM did, they'd sell tons and probably kick some BMW ass, for sure. Good seats and no vibration will do nicely, KTM! Also, much bigger gas tanks, which nobody seems to get right! Randy748/Calif.

• Well the rec.motorcycles.dirt crowd is a bit more "real" when it comes to off-road riding. And as such they are mostly right when it comes to the GS Dakar. It's a lot of marketing hype vs. the reality. Seriously given how they ship the bike vs. how they hype it there is a ton of difference between the dirt capability of this bike vs. KTM or Honda. That being said, if properly outfitted (and ridden) it can do lots of fun things in the dirt. davidhpark, #711

• How many guys do the Ironbutt on a Honda or KTM dirtbike? How many trans-continental tour at 85 mph? How many have 50-70,000 miles? Ride two up? Convert to supermono and do a Race Track Day? Or just change tires and go to track day? The F650 isn't as good a dirt bike, but it will do all those things and still go pretty far offroad. Maybe not as far as a KTM, but who gets rid of a HD or Goldwing to go to an XR650? No one bike can perform all tasks perfectly, and the F650 is it's own unique compromise. THEY'RE JUST JEALOUS! ;-). Todd #389

• 1. Honda or KTM dirtbikes aren't made for doing the Ironbutt.
  2. BMW F650GS/Dakar's aren't "dirtbikes"
  3. Honda or KTM dirtbikes aren't made for "transcontinental touring at 85 mph".
  4. You don't buy those bikes for high mileage you buy them because they work best on the trail
  5. You can get major mileage out of the Honda's which basically run forever, KTM's can be equally long-lasting but the Honda's beat the BMW's for dirt longevity
  6. You can ride two up on the Honda 650 or KTM sized mount. Is it like the GS/Dakar, no, but you can ride two-up when you need to. Different bikes, different purposes.
  7. You can buy the KTM as a supermono or covert it to a supermono and at the race day it will kick the F650's ass, forwards, backwards, and sideways. I'd put my money on the Honda as well in this race, anytime.
  8. As far as a track day is concerned, ditto, the Honda/KTM's are lighter/more manoeuvrable. The BMW has no advantage in this department.
  9. Or just change tires and go to track day?
  
  I don't think that these other riders are jealous, they're just speaking from reality. You need to get some perspective as to the right tool for the job. As much as I love the BMW F650 series you really need to keep in mind that this is a MAJOR compromise bike geared for on-road/comfort travel. Davidhpark, #711.

• I bought a 2001 lc4 a few months back. It is an excellent dualsport machine. If you want to find your favorite bike ride the KTM 400 road miles then ride the BMW the same trip. No contest there and that's why it is ok for us to have several bikes in the garage. Steve#417(IN,USA)

• Just took a trip to my local KTM retailer, test rode the KTM LC4 660 Rally bike for a few miles, what a machine. The bike felt about 200lb. less than my 99 F650, but with 18 gal. Fuel capacity, that would add about 50-60lb. of fuel when filled. The price tag of $12K does not make the purchase reasonable, but I think I will put my savings into the LC8 fund until it becomes available.
  With the claimed dry weight on the LC8 being 419lb. that is still lighter than the F650GS, but only with the power of a V twin engine... ahh.. the things that I would do with such animal.. 'Til 2004. cat0020#1056

• This bike has been in development for so long (I think they delayed the release of the LC8 Adventure to pair it up with an LC8 street bike) that most of the kinks would (hopefully) be resolved. The good thing for me is that the KTM dealer is about 100km closer than the nearest BMW dealership; a huge benefit for someone who has a limited schedule for drop-off, pick-up. Lastly, while I've been looking into the LC8 Adventure I was told that the first generation will be carb'ed, subsequent model years will be FI'ed. Andre Whistler, BC #1119

• I believe that KTM is NOT like BMW or other manufacturers. They have done EXTENSIVE R&D/testing on this bike including Rallyes (like the Dakar) where it gets more "real" use in its intended market area than just on a test track. As such I'd agree wholeheartedly with Andre 1119 that it should be ready to go once it hits the dealers. It was due out earlier but KTM wanting to avoid any issues is taking its time with the bike in order to avoid any problems.

• I like KTM, but even so they had a number of problems with the Duke when it first came out. It took a couple of years to get things sorted out. No amount of testing by the manufacturer is going to uncover the same problems as new owners will. Richard #230

• Take a look at http://www.adventurebiker.com which is a site written by a KTM rider who went RTW. Specifically, http://www.adventurebiker.com/cambodia.htm where he mentions that both pigs were alive and squealing for all they're worth. There also another shot of something like 40 chickens tied feet-first to the rear rack. The guy said that each time the motorcycle hit a bump, the chickens got their heads whacked. There's also, for you KTM fans, a fair amount of material about the KTM. Gerry #951 (Phoenix AZ)

• My profound thought would be that the KTM is not as reliable as the BMW. The engine was designed for racing, maximum performance, light-weight and for off-road use, not for long distance touring and general transportation use. Our Rotax engines are heavy, relatively over-built, make less power at lower revs and (I would guess) should last about 3 or 4 times as long in normal street-riding service than the KTM singles, before needing an overhaul. Richard #230

• After hanging out on the ADV rider site and listening to the Adventure R riders talk about their bikes I would have to agree with Richard! I think you should look into it a little more as both manufacturers seem to be really case specific w/ KTM being the harder of the two to find parts for! (KTM just opened up a new parts hub though). Scotty FT. W, TX. #1078

• I have both bikes. The KTM has 760 miles so far, and is only a few weeks old. The BMW is nearing 5000. They are very, very different motorcycles, but you already would know that. As far as reliability, I think both engines are well built. If you treat the bike well, oil changes etc, I imagine either one will serve you well. Many riders on the KTM list have many KMs on their bikes without major troubles. If you want a smooth road mostly tourer, the BMW is much better. If much of your riding/travels will be on bad roads/gravel/dirt, the KTM is superior. Vibration is way overstated on the bike, I only notice it when I first start riding. The seat sucks - it is a dirt bike seat and sitting for over 2 hours is not very comfortable. If you want to do two-up riding, then forget the KTM. Cost. - The KTM is cheaper, and I think it will be cheaper to maintain. I paid less then $100 for the KTM 600 mile service, using K&N filters instead of OEM. The BMW service, by comparison, was over $200. Other parts I have ordered are cheaper, too. Rally pegs are$28.00 each, vs. $95 for the Touratech pair for the BMW. An Adventure seat is $85, but there really is not much to it. I'm getting another one to see what a saddle company can do to widen it. I will be making a in-depth review comparo in a few months. Chris #1073 in Groton, MA

• I was in the BMW dealer in San Rafael one day and a fellow was picking up his wife's F650. He was talking with the man behind the counter. The counter man was saying how much fun he had on a good run up the coast on the new F650 and how he would keep up with most on the real twisties. The man retrieving his wife's bike said "you wouldn't keep up with me on my KTM". Some discussion back and forth but of interest to me was the KTM man said, "it's not very reliable though". Chris above says the following, "Many riders on the KTM list have many Kms on there
  bikes without major troubles". What is classified as major trouble? To me trouble is trouble. Major cost more and lasts longer but trouble is trouble. Wamer #1021 CA.

• I have a friend who has an r1100gs and has taken an Adventure out for extended trips out in San Diego. He had a gel seat placed under the stock seat skin and he says that vibration is manageable except for at his knees on the tank. I had a Dakar but had the gas leak out from the top (after the recall work was done on the tank) of the tank all over the swingarm and the chain and sprocket...kinda scarred me off the Beemers (I've owned an d r100gspd, r1100gs, and the Dakar. All bikes were great in their own way but helluva expensive to maintain. I've been told that speedwise, the 640 is faster than the Rotax, which is not surprising. I wouldn't mind something different, so the KTM at least fits that billing. If the reliability problems with it are not catastrophic (such as the gas dumping Outta the tank and onto the moving parts and rider, than I am game to try it. Serpento

• I just thought that I would let the gang know that several weeks ago I took the plunge and entered the Alcan 5000. There will be several F650s in the rally, I will be riding my KTM. I may regret that choice later, as the stock BMW on the Dakar is more comfortable then the custom seat I go made for the KTM, but I am having way too much fun with the KTM right now. Chris #1073 in Groton, MA.

• The KLR is much lighter, simpler and has huge aftermarket support which allows you to change the handling significantly without too much $$$. I own a KLR so I am definitely biased. The main factor for me was the cost. I got my KLR for $4650 brand spankin' new (I watched them open the crate). I immediately bought some real bark busters (and then crash tested them to make sure they work...) a radiator guard, and a real skid plate (a lot beefier than the Dakar version). I don't do any long touring I just use it to have fun when going out into the desert to work. I can go all day on a tank, it putts around all day at low rpms, gets 55-60 mpg, oil filters only cost 6 bucks and it can actually be used offroad. Modified the suspension a little and it handles really well on twisty roads and on washboard. And it was cheap. If I was gonna get a BMW it would be an old air head, before they "improved" them with fuel injection and ABS and all that crap that really sucks in the dirt. I know I will piss off the BMW riders by saying this but it is true. Chris on Advrider

• I don't believe for a minute that the KLR is lighter...steel tank ....steel frame. Who has had a bone stock one on the scale? The Japs are notorious for fudging there figures...BMW is always conserve in this area and most of the magazines agree with this. I love the KLR, but. JimJib  on Advrider

• Dakar bias. A little heavy but well balanced- bullet proof- my riding is 40% gravel roads and 50% offroad/ river banks (10%the ever dreaded pavement) this bike performs much better than I imagined 3yr 36K warranty for a dual sport what were they thinking all the parts I have had to replace thus far have been very inexpensive and seem to be engineered to break away without causing significant damage i.e. fender, mirrors, tail light assembly, rear brake res. Advrider.

• There is another factor that needs to be considered; How long do you plan to keep the bike? Having only had Jap bikes until now (with a brief dalliance with an Italian bike) - I always envied the longevity of the Bavarian offerings. Maybe it's a reflection on the type of people who buy BMWs. I have had my Dakar for 15 months and 18,000 k's and the honeymoon is not over yet. Whenever I felt like buying a new bike I always used the phrase "this one I am going to keep forever", after 15 months I still feel that way. I commute 50 k's per day and have put about 5 to 6,000k's on it in two trips. Add to this the odd weekend blast into the woods and I reckon that I have covered most surfaces except for a deep river crossing - I even rode over a BIG snake and it handled that alright! I think that I can safely say that in 5 years time the Dakar will still look pretty fresh but I reckon that the KLR will probably look a bit sorry for itself, which is not a reflection on the bike but a reflection on the whole Japanese industry-everything is dramatically updated every year or two which makes everything seem to be quite old even though it is perfectly good. The motor on the Dakar is unstressed... it's probably the same on the KLR but if my `98 ZX9R is anything to go by, it doesn't matter if the motor is unstressed because the moving parts of the motor seem to be made of chocolate or some sort of cheese (brie?) so the bits have to be replaced with astonishing regularity. Fuel consumption is superb on the Dakar, 23 kpl around town, 29kpl on a trip over the Snowy Mountains. Can't comment on the KLR. My point is; if you are not convinced that you will be keeping the bike for longer than a year or so then get the KLR and throw it away when you have finished with it. If you expect to keep the bike "forever" then get the Dakar. They do look old though and I would expect that the 90,000 plus KLR would be ridden by a courier, running the same chain and sprockets and be worth about $7.50. The Dakar on the other hand would be as splendid and desirable as the day it was made-probably worth more. Ziegfried on Advrider

• I looked at the 650 Dakar, and bought (a very old) KLR. The purchase value of the KLR is MUCH greater than the BMW but I got the sense from the dealership (Max BMW in North Hampton NH) that if you brought in a wadded Dakar, it would be OK by them, and you'd be taken care of. Is the BMW a nicer bike, incrementally yes, exponentially , no. Is the service better, I can't tell for sure, but I think so.  BTW, I love my KLR. I ride it like an actual dirt bike. I suck, so I fall off all the time. Mostly she waits for me patiently until I get back on. I had her stuck up to the wheel hubs in a mud bog a few weeks ago, and flung her up a hill into a tree last week. She says she still loves me. Whatever you get get knobbie tires if you go anywhere but pavement and hard dirt roads! Ken on Advrider.

• After riding a XR650L for a number of years - over the Rubicon Trail a dozen times and countless dual sport rides - I bought a KTM LC4. What a difference!! The stability and suspension of the KTM is light-years ahead of the other full sized dualsport bikes. The bike makes the rocks on the steep trails irrelevant. RL. Dallas on Advrider.

• About the KTM: I have owned three of them (all offroad models) and they are truly great bikes. BUT...getting parts can be a nightmare. Waiting for MONTHS is not uncommon. I have read on the internet that this problem appears all over the country, too. Once you finally do get a part, paying for it becomes the next problem. Very high dollar. Unless you are REALLY in love with the KTM (which it sounds like you are not) you are better off with the Dakar, IMHO. DakotaDakar on Advrider.

• I owned a Ural for 9 months. To answer your questions:
  
  How reliable is it?
  1 out of 10. You need to be the sort of guy who can rebuild a gearbox at the side of the road and who doesn't mind cancelling trips if the beast won't go. We are talking 1930's technology and communist quality. The Japanese carbs don't make up for tractor factory main bearings.
  
  Is the quality reasonably high for a "new classic"?
  The Russian parts are still awful. Paint etc. are OK.
  
  How hard is it to work on (relative to classic F)?
  Easy. This is the only redeeming feature of the quality problems. You still break lots of unrelated bits during any strip down until you've dumped all the Russian crud. You have to rebuild the bike to Western standards before if is anything more than a curiosity. Its better to start with a basic Western machine like the airhead.
  
  How is the new 750 cc engine?
  Don't know, mine was a 650. I doubt they've changed much inside the crank case and gearbox.
  
  How is the company to deal with?
  Ural UK are awful, they make BMWUK look good. Don't know about USA. The Russians are impossible to deal with, so don't even think about the equivalent of writing to Munich.
  
  How is Wagner's (dealer in IN) to deal with?
  Don't know. If I fail to put you off, ask them to show you a bike they are setting up. If they don't clean every tiny part of the carbs in particular, check the mixture by a plug chop, the timing, and the carb balance, steer clear. A Ural is a classic. Your dealer needs to be able to deal with 1940's service issues.
  
  Would I be better off restoring a R75 and then putting the URAL car on
  Absolutely. I am running an R1100R with a chair but am thinking about swapping the body to a Ural. The body style is great. Airheads and oil heads can be dealt with by 21st century people and parts are readily available. All airhead parts were upgraded during the run. so for example, you can fit 1980's brakes to the airhead.
  
  I bought my 2000 Ural in July 2000. It ran fine until the end of the run in period (40 mph limit) in September. Then I found out it was flat out at 50. David Angel the best Ural tuner in the UK fixed it by resetting the carbs and timing from scratch. It made it 200 miles back home cruising at 50-60 but blew a head gasket within 3 miles of home. I fixed this and then found I had the carb problem back. Repeated trips to where I bought it gave no joy. New carbs went wrong too, the timing always went back to single cylinder running after a day or two. I had to cancel a trip to Europe. By May 2001 I also had horrible bearing type noises from the engine. I sold up and got out. I lost about half my money due to the mileage (I had somehow done 7000 km) and condition of the paint (riding on salted winter roads).
  The dealer sold the bike to an Italian guy who planned to ride to Italy. He set off 5 times, never getting further than Dover without some catastrophic failure. The dealer (faced with standard UK law, not Ural new bike warranty) ended up totally rebuilding the engine for free. They gave the guy his money back and asked him to dump the bike however he liked. They told Ural they were no longer dealers. The Italian finally made it over the channel although by this time his girl friend had left him and gone home alone!
  
  Urals are junk. If you are not a mechanical genius with another means of transport and a lot of patience, stay away. There is no getting away from Russian quality of major engine parts. If they could sort this, they would be a great design.
  
  I now ride a 97 R1100R with a Charnwood Meteor chair. The only things lacking are the reverse gear, easy change wheels (only one puncture in 10 years of biking and that was a crappy Russian valve failure) and the practical metal body. The latter can be cured with time and paint. Andy Leeds UK #982

• It is not in the same class as an F650 because of its displacement. Tiger is in the same class as Capo Nord, V-Strom, Gran Canyon and the 1150GS. Granted there are lots of differences, but dollar wise, the Tiger is a good value. And I'd go with the 955i Fuel Injected 2001 model. A dealer I know has a leftover for $7k <<<original list was $10,700. My guess is that the Tiger is as reliable as any other European or Asian made motorcycle. I think getting parts on the road maybe a little more difficult, but a lot of BMW dealers don't have spares in stock anyway. Depends what your going to do with it--- a lot of bike and MOTOR, especially if you can find a deal on a good used one. Steve #1059 in MA

• Had one. Great bike, but top heavy and not suited for much more difficult offroad tasks than fire roads. Fast, comfy, economical. No problems with it at all. The only mod I made was heavier front fork springs. I traded it in on my Classic to get better offroad capabilities. Harl #380

• Have to agree with Harl on the handling. The Tiger is more of a Capo Nord/Varedo competitor, or a poor substitute for an R1150GS. A 90/10 road/trail bike unlike the 70/30 F650 capability if you like. Triumph also had some engine quality problems that put me off when I was looking for a bike in this class in 96-97 (can't remember what exactly, cams spring to mind but I'm not certain), so check with the Triumph OC to find out what to look for. (I went for an R1100R in end due to the insurance costs on both the R1100Gs and the Tiger, and regretted it for 18 months until I got another F). Andy Leeds UK #982

• My guess would be that, all things being equal, the R1100GS would be more reliable over the long-run. Richard #230

• I'd say that if you do more street that dirt, then go Tiger. More dirt than street: F650. Robert in TX #959

• I put some miles on a friends '95 tiger last year. Here's some thoughts I came away with. Handles great 2 up once your rolling (not unlike a GS), bit of a challenge in town though. Somewhat top heavy. Needs stiffer fork springs. Looks tough. Engine has a very satisfying roar/growl. Chicks dig it. He's had no problems but it's only got 10,000 miles on. The major flaw was inexcusable lack of a centerstand. Chain-drive, centerstand, hello? I'm thankful BMW still has a centerstand design division. Compared to an f650 it feels a lot bigger because it is. The tiger carries a good bit of weight high up due to frame design. Fat steel tube with liquid cooled 3 cylinder engine hanging from it. I don't mean to put you off the tiger, it was a hoot to ride and if a couple of items in the overall design hadn't been overlooked I would have bought one. I'm a sucker for the monster trailie style bikes. Take it for a test ride if possible and see what it says to ya. My perspective is coming from a 6'1" 190lb. rider. At the CLASS school I attended in June a woman that appeared to be about 5'3" was riding a Hayabusa waaay faster than I could/would on my 99 Ducati 900ss. Too much? Not enough? Who knows? I think it all comes down to comfort , experience and confidence. Ride on -phil

• I guess high center of gravity would be a more PC way to describe the older version of the Tiger. I noticed it most at low speeds, a mild sensation that the bike was not as stable as a person might like. Hard to get off the sidestand, too. Above about 5mph, it wasn't really noticeable. Harl #380

• I might get a Triumph Tiger from a family member who left America for Europe. I might sell it, keep it (gave me a good offer) or any other choice. The question is, how does it compare to a 2001F650GS? I know it is a bit heavier, but have you heard of maintenance, parts, any known problems? Thank You guys. Alberto (Boston MA)

• Those Triumph triple engines are very reputable for reliability and durability. With the US market development and Triumph retailers on the rise, I would think the parts and services are fairly easy to get. Compare to the F650GS, it is much more of a road touring machine like the R11X0GS. I would keep it if I have a family member give me a Tiger. Cat0020 in PA #1056

• I agree with Cat, it's not an off-road, at most a wannabe. I inspected a new one which had the oil radiator without any protection and placed where it will surely be smashed or what ever. That is going off-road, I'm sure it's just fine on the tarmac. rakaD

• I believe its a great bike. When I bought my F650 I was trying to decide which of the two. The clincher was the better financing deal from BMW. As luck would have it, I ended up with a bike that is more appropriate for my purposes. The tiger is an "adventure tourer", more along the lines of a BMW GS 1150. only its about 50 pounds lighter, no ABS, no shaft drive, although probably more bike for the money than the GS ll50. You don't have to keep it on asphalt, but i sure would want some kind of "road" be it an
  old fireline, jeep road, etc. Actually, F650 is a pretty lousy "off road" bike, if you really mean "off road."  Roy 1095

• Also hope that you don't have a voltage regulator/rectifier failure. Replacement is really big bucks on this engine, I hear. Richard #230, Pacifica, CA

• A lot depends on the version. I had one of the earlier versions, with the steel frame. It was very top heavy and while a good street bike, an off road poseur at best. The newer version, with the alloy perimeter frame is better, but still probably a forest road bike at best. Guess it depends on where you plan to ride. Mostly street with some two up? Triumph. More dirt, little two up. GS might be better. Harl #380

• I owned one of the earlier Tigers(96') and mostly concur with the above statements, tho' those versions to me seemed more dirt-oriented than the newest version. While heavy, they make decent off-road explorers when done in moderation. Have over 8" of travel front & rear and great power. Their biggest short-coming (besides the weight) is really soft fork springs. I put Triumph's optional heavy-duty springs in mine (about $85)and it was a 100% improvement (on & offroad). Had zero problems with mine in 2yrs and over 20k miles. Wish I could say the same about my 01'GS. With a 6.5 gallon tank it was a bit top-heavy and handled noticeably better when it got down to 1/2 or 1/4 tank. jpd793(SF/E.bay)

• The routing of exhaust, oil lines and other details on the Triumph are vulnerable for serious off roading. It's as if the designers are saying "don't go off road". The newest models have firmer suspension and are really sold as trail styled tourers (pannier kits available). The triple is a very relaxed engine - a good mile muncher. Paul W (UK) Dakar

• Why is the BMW better than the other offerings? this is a self answered question. The price differential is $3,000USD vs. the Honda XR650 - is it justified in your view? yes the Honda has more dirt bike traits i.e. the little headlight really doesn't have rear end loaded up I'm sure there would be cracking in the rear frame. There seem to be a lot of the 2001 F650CS's for sale on classified section of this site - are there any glaring problems (other than the fuel system recall)? even some early 00 models have been semi fixed with the newest version soft ware. If you own a F650GS, what is it the best thing about it? I can ride it all day no fatigue long range touring if you can control the throttle easy to service the two filters are reasonably cheap also the wealth of information available here an other sites. Would you buy the Dakar, or just the standard? I have the Dakar only ridden demo std on street I think if your get a dual sport it needs a 21 front wheel. What accessories do you consider essential (ABS, etc.)? id go with bar risers lower seat side cases an a good rack from Ventura which I have. Anything else you care to comment on. Don't be put off buy surging there seems to be a fix. db#Unknown

• A well sorted all-around package. The engines (Rotax derived, BMW modified) seem to have an excellent record for longevity. Decent all-around build quality.
  No, if you would be happy with the Honda (or the Kawasaki KLR). Ride them all, then decide if the money is worth it. No idea, except this is not the best economy I have seen. Great all-a-rounder. Enough power to make things interesting. Enough brakes and handling to hustle through the tight stuff. Nice power-band when sorted. Economical to operate and insure. If you like to ride, this is a fine companion. This bike makes no excuses for not riding it (a lot of bikes, sadly, do make excuses for not riding them). If you are even thinking about off-road, get the Dakar. Assuming you fit. I would take ABS if I found it laying on the street. I would not pay for it. Must have? Stiffer front fork springs. Tank bag. Braided steel front brake lines and aftermarket pads. There is a ton of stuff you can do with this bike, but, to me, those are the essentials. A lot of my mods are to make the bike fit me (6'2, 205lbs.) Great in town, great on fire-roads, great on the two-lanes, and great in the rain. Freeway use? I detest Freeways! None-the-less, we are all forced to deal with them. The bike will hold it's own (but it's no RT). Sean #807

Trevor (UK), 28/Oct/01

F650GS:

• http://www.motorcyclenews.com/bikes/detail?sectionID=57237&documentID=7956
• http://www.f650.info
• F650GS - Long Term Review: http://www.motorcyclenews.com/bikes/detail?sectionID=57237&documentID=67859

F650GS - Dakar:

• http://www.motorcyclenews.com/bikes/detail?sectionID=212241&documentID=6493
• http://www.cmgonline.com/articles/CMG02/specialfeature/F650Dakar/part1/splash.html  - CMG's long-term test of a BMW F650GS Dakar.

Comparisons:

• F650GS vs. Deauville - T-Max Scooter - http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/detail?sectionID=50678&documentID=92577
• F650GS vs. Transalp and Aprilia Pegaso - http://www.motorcyclenews.com/bikes/group_road_test?sectionID=50685&documentID=5726
• Aprilia (Pegaso) Board http://pub49.ezboard.com/fapriliaforumfrm10

F650 ST Review - MCN Feb 1997 (Paper Issue Only)

Ron Woods Mods - MCN May 1999 (Paper Issue Only)

For general information and opinions on seats, both stock and aftermarket, see also this Seats FAQ. Applies to both GS and Classic. For Short Riders, see the GS Low Bike FAQ or the Classic Lowering Kit FAQ

• Here is a Picture of BOTH the GS & Dakar Seats, Side by Side. Thanks to Haakon & Fernando. They both fit BOTH bikes.
• 
• I'm 6'2, with a Dakar. Works fine for me. I did three modifications that helped with the comfort and ergos.
  1. Touratech Peg, shifter, break lever relocation kit. Before installing, my knees hit the indentation in the tank. Wit the kit, my knees fit underneath them, where they belong. This was not uncomfortable, but always felt weird. They also make standing up easier, and more sure footed.
  2. Touratech bar risers 3. Ermax windscreen. I don't really care for the looks of this thing, but it reduced wind noise about 25% from the Dakar screen, and all but eliminated buffeting, with drove me nuts over 70mph. Your mileage may vary. Chris #1073
• Buy a Dakar. You will be cramped on a G/S normal sized. I know every time I ride a normal G/S I run my foot into the ground when I stop. That is mostly cause I ride the Dakar most the time but the G/S is too small for me at 6 ft. People seem to thing that since the Dakar looks like a dirt bike it isn't as good on the road as the G/S. I disagree. I like the Dakar on the road far better than the G/S. The ride is much smoother because of the travel and I like sitting higher and being able to see over traffic. Mine see lots of freeways and 500 to 1000 mile days. I takes them in stride and I feel I am as comfortable as anyone short of a full on tour. i.e. k1200lt. Get out and try one and I am sure you will agree. And again this is not to take anything away from the G/S. It is a wonderful bike for short people. Stuportech
• I'm 6'2 and ride my 2001 GS without many modifications. the only mod that I've made, due to height, was getting the taller seat. it's basically the same seat design, with double the padding, also very nice on long rides. I'm not sure how much this option is, as my dealer through it in to be nice :). the peg relocation kit that Chris mentions sounds like something I might be interested in too though! as for the Dakar being the only true choice (Supertech), I'm sure that's up for debate, especially if you're doing a lot of highway riding. as a taller rider, I love my GS! cheers, b. emphatic
• 6'-3 and I found the standard GS seat too low so I put on a Dakar seat and all is well. If you plan on doing a real percentage of your riding off road the Dakar has the edge with its longer suspension travel and larger wheels. However, if, you live in a city and really won't be off road much the GS setup is better for road riding. The longer travel suspension on the Dakar is not a desirable attribute on the street (unless there are more potholes than pavement). The best thing to do is ride them both enough to make an informed decision and honestly assess what kind of riding you really want to do. This is a dual sport design and there are trade offs made to meet this goal. If you want something that can go both places either model is a good choice based on your street/dirt bias. If you really only want a street bike I would at least consider other designs. BradG 1002
• I am 6'4 and GS works for me (Dakar seat though) .I do agree, my legs do not fit inside the indentation of the tank, but I sit in mid position on the seat anyway so it does not bother me much. Pooshkin
• Funduro & 6ft2inch. you'll probably find yourself a bit cramped on a stock Funduro. I'm 6'4 and couldn't take the stock seat for more than 30 minutes. I've done two things to make my bike very comfortable under different riding conditions. I bought a Corbin seat which I use for road riding and good conditions. it's leather and comfortable and was built for my butt (quality is mediocre). it comes with it's own seat pan, so I was left with the stock seat. just recently, I had the stock seat rebuilt into a dirt seat, raised about 7-8 inches and basically just a flat seat. you may be able to find a stock seat and have it rebuilt before you head over. My stock seat rebuild/recover job cost $130 from Rick Mayer ( www.rickmayercycle.com ). the seats on the new bikes (GS/Dakar) wont work on the classic bikes, so you won't be able to use a Dakar seat. Mark #403.
• You're plenty tall enough for the Dakar. I'm 5'9", 150 lbs., and it's just fine. I love the bike, by the way. I've put on close to 23K miles since last April, everything from a 600-mile interstate day to chasing sport bikes in the twisties to gnarly off-road rides. Check out www.f650.com for additional opinions and a very thorough maintenance FAQ. Robin on Advrider.
• I also am 5'8 and enjoy the extra height. You only need one foot on the ground when you stop. It always seems the bike is small when you get both feet flat on the ground. KiwiDakar.

People often ask if they got a good deal. The real question is are you happy with the bike and what you paid for it. If so, it's a good deal. Nate

Quick and easy currency converter. http://www.xe.com/ucc/ I use this converter page all the time. It's very easy and accurate. Why not put it in the FAQ, as price comparisons come up all the time, as this is truly a global hobby, with global participants and friends. http://www.xe.com/ucc/ Doug W.

Mostly Classic, but some of these Symptoms have popped up in the GS

• Failing Waterpump - Refer to Waterpump FAQ
• Rusty Bar End Weights/Electronic Bits Cover - refer Rusty parts Section
• Voltage Regulator/Wires/Battery Overheated & Shot - Refer VR FAQ
• Plug Caps & Leads - Refer Plug Caps 'n Coils FAQ
• Corroded Rims - Take a good LOOK at the bike before you buy it. If anything is corroded or nasty, get the seller to get the dealer to replace it under warranty or else pay less for the bike and accept the fact it will look like crap (unless you spend the dough to alter that fact)
• Worn Carb Needles, Jets, O-Rings (4#) - Refer Carb Cleaning FAQ
• Possibly Worn Rubber Seals on the Rocker Cover Bolts
  Popping out of 2nd Gear
  Worn Shifting Drum/Dogs, Difficulty Shifting 1st/2nd
  (note that the F650 is difficult even from NEW between 1st and 2nd)
• Stripped Sump Plug - Refer Sump Plug FAQ.
• Flaky/Depressed paint under Tank Allen Hex Bolts - indicating Tank been on and off a lot. Refer Gas Tank Removal/Replacement FAQ
• Cheesy/Rusty Exhaust Stud Nuts - Refer Exhaust Gasket FAQ
• Check Rubber Carburettor Inlet Manifolds plus Oil Pipes from frame for cracking. Refer Carb Cleaning FAQ
• Rear Shock Absorber Shot - Refer Shocks - Aftermarket FAQ
• Bent Suspension Linkage Bolts (GS) - Refer Shocks - Maintenance FAQ
• Rounded Fork Cap Bolts - Someone mistakenly not undoing the Clamp Nuts. Refer Fork Oil FAQ.
• Shot Steering Head Bearings - Refer Steering Head Bearing FAQ
• Shot Wheel Bearings - Refer Wheel Bearing FAQ
• Shot Clutch Actuator Arm Shaft - Possibly '94/'95 Soft Shafts or too Stiff Springs - See Clutch FAQ
• Fuel Hose Hardening and Fuel-line Clamp Loosening
• Pull UP on the luggage rack at the back to make sure the welds of the (cheesy-ass) welds into which it bolts have not broken (yet). Frame FAQ
• Un-repaired crash damage (scuffs) can indicate hidden problems elsewhere
• Chains/Sprockets and other things Standard to ANY Bike are covered in http://www.clarity.net/~adam/buying-bike.html
• Opinions on Mechanical Troubles & Long Term Owners Feedback
• Refer the High Mileage FAQ
• (Single spark Fuel Injected Models) Surging and Stalling (Note: This can be fixed)

If it was cheap, lots of people would do it: See GS Documentation.

• Note! The fuel tank in Europe is different than the US tank. Refer Fuel Tank FAQ GS
• The Canadian spec bike is not exactly the same as US spec bike. The main difference is the carbon activated filter for fuel emissions control as required by EPA in the US. We have the German spec fuel system and 17 litre tank. Thus, if you want to import the bike into the US, say California, that would be a problem. You'd have to replace the tank and add the required filter. Other states might be easier. DHP#711

by Flash #412, October '01

• I used to wheel and deal a lot of BMW motorcycles. (The olde fartes might remember Braun Motor Works.) I've had my eye on the used BMW motorcycle market for about thirty years. I offer some observations.
• Never, EVER trade a bike to a dealer if you want full value. The dealer MUST have margin, and you're giving it to him right out of your pocket by not finding a buyer yourself. If you find the dealer's offer too easy, convenient and reasonably acceptable, ok. But REMOVE ALL ACCESSORIES. An F650 with hot grips, Jesse bags, crash bars, tank bag and top box will fetch you about $200 more from a dealer than the same bike naked. Take all the accessories off and sell them on the side to a buyer who WANTS them. They have more value to a willing buyer than in the package.
• BMW motorcycles drop in price for about ten to fifteen years and then begin to appreciate. Typically, the model line must cease production before they begin to gain. In the late 1970's I was buying running /2's for $400-$600. In the late 1980's one could frequently find running /5's for under $1000. What do running /2's sell for now? How about pristine ones? /5's are really beginning to take off in value and spares are both plentiful and cheap.
• I bought an R80G/S new in 1981 and sold it in 1997 for $300 less than I paid for it, with over 70k on it. OK, so it wasn't a great FINANCIAL investment. But it isn't a Harley. I RODE the thing: toured, commuted, road raced, jumped it high in the air and so forth. I recognized that model for what it was in 1981 and it has taken the BMW community two decades to realize that this is (was) THE do-all bike. It broke my heart to sell my collection of R80G/S's when I moved to France.
• But when I got my first F650 I realized that I had found a Good Thing. The F650 will be the next R80G/S. It may take 20 years for the rest of the community to wake up and realize what we inmates already know. If you don't believe this... what does Helge ride now? Why does Dr. Frazier drop in here from time to time? (The carburetted F650 is the nibs)
• Take a look at blue book value for an R80G/S and then take a look at the REAL market value. You'll find wholesale is a few hundred dollars. Yet actual people pay more than the bikes sold new for one.
• Of COURSE used F650's prices drop. They didn't cost much to start with. The price went DOWN after introduction due to an incentive program. And in the USA... they are only four years old. What did you expect for a 2-5 year old vehicle? If you are buying motorcycles for investment purposes, I respectfully submit you have selected the wrong make and model. Buy a Harley and don't ride it. Or get a Bimota and try to keep it in one piece. I fully expect that when I get ready to sell my 98 F650 in a decade or two that it'll fetch at least the $5k I paid for it. And you can be damned sure I will sell the accessories separately.

• OK, so I've closing in on 3 weeks and 2000 km of experience on my '97st. The gearing on this thing really bugs me. It does not like the rpm to drop below 3250. It makes a clank-clank-clank sound when rolling on the throttle from low rpm (about 3000) in 3rd-5th. Is this just the way a thumper is or is it lack of power, or what ? I feel that the most comfortable rpm range is 3500-4200 all the way thru the gearbox. I've encountered some problems when down shifting from 4th to 3rd. The lever sort of lands between the gears and the bike acts like it's in neutral. I understand that you have to be determined when shifting this thing (and I am), but why does this only occur between these two gears. When I bought it was idling at 1600 rpm. I reset it to about 1300-1400 a couple of days ago, and it's not enjoying that. I thought it was supposed to idle at 1400 ? Another thing is the starter. Recently (the last week) it acts like it suddenly is out of charge. Turn the key and headlight goes on. Oil and neutral light on dash also lights up. Hit the ignition switch and all lights die. The starter is silent as a mouse. Hit the ignition again and it fires up right away, like nothing had happened. I'm puzzled. The noise and vibration at low rpm is normal. The bike will pull well from about 1500 rpm if you just hold the throttle open and let the engine hammer away. If you have ridden Japanese bikes it takes a bit of getting used to. At low speeds you need be in the right gear. The gearbox is typical BMW and is straight off a Russian tractor. Don't treat it with any respect, give it a good stomp. The gearing can be changed via the sprockets if you need to. The Motorworks site has the details. The noise at too low an RPM is normal. Normal but, bad for the motor. Once out of first gear I keep my 97ST above 4200 RPM. Between 12,000 and 22,000 miles on my odometer there came a buzz in the bars which would leave my hands buzzing for half an hour after the ride. It is now gone. As for the lowering of RPM at say 60 kmh, you shouldn't, just shift down and keep the revs up. Many of us, I'm sure, run at 5,500 RPM for hours on end. When down shifting I have found that if I am at too low an RPM more pressure is required. So keeping the revs up could help here also. But, check the chain adjustment, when my is too loose the gear box seems to be clunky. And for the starter problem, check the battery fluid level and if it is still connected check the side stand inter-lock switch. Do not be timid riding this bike, it likes to be ridden aggressively with high revs. If this does not work for you then consider changing the front sprocket to a 15 tooth which will help reduce the lurching in the traffic speed ranges you indicate you ride in. You can low-shift the F650 and it will pull fine-just protest with that poppity pop sound as it gets into the sweet spot rpm of about 4000-4500. The bike was made to run at 5500 rpm fine. That is a decent freeway speed of about 70, so I can't imagine running this engine at 5500 would hurt it at all. It's a thumper so the power transfer will never be that smooth, but it has good torque from 2000 on up. It just sounds bad, and BMW says keep the rpms at around 3000-3500 for the most part. CG Member

Typical Question: After about a 10+ year hiatus from motorcycling, I'm in the market for a Dual Sport 650, and am comparing the different MFR's offerings. I'm looking for a bike that will hold it's own on the freeway, and also be versatile enough for some light to moderate trail riding so that I can accompany my 10 year old in the dirt. My last ride was a Kawasaki H2 - so yes, I'm a bit of a power nut, but I'm also ready for something much more civilized than that beast.

Obviously I expect this group to be biased towards the BMW, but can this group offer any +'s and -'s on this bike?

Specific questions:

1. Why is the BMW better than the other offerings?
2. The price differential is $3,000USD vs. the Honda XR650 - is it justified in your view?
3. There seem to be a lot of the 2001 F650CS's for sale on classified section of this site - are there any glaring problems (other than the fuel system recall)?
4. If you own a F650GS, what is it the best thing about it?
5. Would you buy the Dakar, or just the standard?
6. What accessories do you consider essential (ABS, etc.)?
7. Anything else you care to comment on.

Typical Responses:

• I have a '01 F650GS. I love it! The only reason I'm sitting at a computer instead of riding on a Sunday afternoon is that it's wet and cold here. (Canada, eh?) This is my eighth bike (one at a time, I'm not wealthy), including high performance sport bikes and a '91 R100GS, and this bike is the probably the most fun bike I have owned. I went back to BMW because of the workmanship on the big GS, but things have changed a bit over time. There are some nitpicky things-the bars are a bit weak, the rear compartment cover is insecure, and so on-but the heart of the bike, the engine, is first class. On the FI the fuel management problems are being sorted out. My Riding Buddy has the identical bike, but with ABS, and swears by it. I dislike ABS. Obviously that's a personal preference. I find the shape of the false tank is a bit awkward when you're on the pegs for extended periods. Probably depends on one's anatomy. You say you want a bike that holds its own on the freeway. Does that mean you intend to tour with it? Unless you are into heavy-duty adventure touring, I would say the BMW side cases are excellent. Yeah I know the aluminum scratches easily, but I've had a couple of tip-overs with them and it's barely noticeable. The tank bag is great for road touring, although again it's a bit in the way in the dirt. Riding Buddy has the top case as well and finds the bike prone to waggle at high speeds, when all the luggage is on. By the way, I find the stock seat very comfortable for all-day touring. In number 3) you mention the CS. I assume you mean GS, as the CS is only just going on sale. The CS is a horse of another colour. The accessory plug is very useful. It gives you the option of charging the battery without removing it. Removing the battery is not a question of two screws and pop the side cover. In Canada I consider heated grips a basic necessity of life; if you live in California maybe they don't matter. This bike is definitely not an XR650. It's so different that you can't compare them price wise. And you mention the H2. If my memory serves me right, the H2 was a two-stroke. Again very different from the F650. Since you are considering your choice carefully, why not ride a demo to get the feel of the bike? There's no point in buying one and then finding out you hate the power band or something. To sum up, I think of my F650 as a Renaissance bike: goes just about everywhere, does just about everything, and loves doing it. It sounds corny, but for me this bike is what the joy of motorcycling is all about. And this is probably the only bike I would ever have spent so much time talking about. Keep asking questions and the various viewpoints in the answers will help you clarify exactly what you want. mspeed
• Your questions are well answered by those posting above, so I'll comment only on #7 (any other comments). You mention a desire to use the bike for light to moderate trail riding. The F650 isn't really a trails bike, at least not for what I think of as trails, being too heavy and not having a suspension well suited to that type of riding. That's not to say it can't be ridden on trails, and it's amazing what a skilled dirt rider (which I am not) can negotiate on a F650GS. But for most of us, riding one on rough, rutted, loose, etc. single tracks isn't much fun and is a lot of work. Gravel/dirt roads can be ridden well on the F650, but, at least for me, anything more difficult becomes much less enjoyable. All dual sport bikes are compromises, and the F650 is at the pavement end of the spectrum. Of the three Japanese brand 650 dual sports, it is said the XR is the most dirt worthy, the Kawasaki KLR the best on pavement, and the Suzuki DR in between in both areas. The only one I have ridden is the DR, which I owned for a time, and it will handle freeway speeds quite nicely, but isn't as comfortable as the F650 on pavement. The KTM Adventure is highly capable off pavement and also capable on pavement, has good wind protection, but is tall, pricey, and the motor vibrates considerably. The KTM 640 LC4 is the Adventure without the fairing, large tank, and instrumentation, weighs considerably less, so it's even more capable off pavement, but not as comfortable on pavement, still pricey, and has the same motor as the Adventure so vibration is still an issue. I would suggest you determine as best you can where your riding will best fit in the dual sport spectrum, and then test ride anything you think might fit the type of riding you will be doing. If you want to trail ride with your son, it might be that a real dirt bike (which can be inexpensive used) might be best for that purpose, and the F650 used for your other riding. That's what I wound up doing, having both a F650 and a dirt bike. Sorry to be so long winded. Hope this is of some help. Good luck and enjoy those rides with your son. Mine is now 20 and we still enjoy those dirt bike rides together - it's a wonderful father-son recreational activity. Mike #926
• Personal 650 comparison, Well after a whole spring, summer and fall of riding 2 650s and really unable to decide which I prefer, I conclude the following; For the off-roader the GS is the better of the two mostly because of the high front fender and all that room behind the front wheel. I also like the sound on the GS and it's shifting pattern. The GS has a dirt bike look and feel. The older F looks more like a road bike. The fullness in the front fairing and the low front fender give it a much heftier look and feel as it goes through the turns. The design is perfect in every way for a 650 single road machine and it pulls like mad! The side bags and top box are at home on the older Fs where I think they look, on the GS, like a dirt bike with luggage, which is why my GS has none.
  There is a great deal to say in comparing the two and o course everything is personal preference but to sum up from a street rider who has had the opportunity to embrace both 650s, if tonight, I had to choose between them, hands down I would keep the ...... 2000 SE! Art #884
• 650GS Pros: ABS (non-Dakar), greater output alternator, more robust counter balance design, in-house built cams, fuel injection, processor controlled engine management system, new (stiffer) frame design. Smoother power delivery between 2K-3K RPM. Dakar version available with 21in front tire/wheel and more suspension travel. Cons: Some (many, most?) bikes exhibit intermittent stalling and mis-firing at midrange RPM's (BMW may have a fix and post 01/01 built bikes are supposed to be fixed at the factory). If the EMS or fuel pump fails (may be unlikely) and you don't have a spare with you you're probably S.O.L. Fewer aftermarket accessories available so far. F650 Funduro Pros: Been around long enough to work out most glitches. With sufficient know-how (available on this board) easier to adjust or make changes to fuel delivery system (twin carburettors), or repair in the middle of nowhere. Large, loyal following on this board. More aftermarket accessories. Cons: Some bikes exhibit intermittent poor running unless changes made to emissions equipment/plumbing (knowledge available on this board). Lumpy, jerky power delivery below 3K rpm on some (many, most?) bikes. Mike#639
• If you do get a lemon your options are more limited if you didn't finance with BMW Finance (because this will be a leverage point to get BMW off their ass and talking to you). Most of the people who's cases I've documented have had to resort to suing BMW (or engaging a lawyer) just to get BMWNA to respond to them. ALL of these people followed the normal route of being nice, listening to their dealer, going back NUMEROUS TIMES at their own SIGNIFICANT EXPENSE AND INCONVENIENCE as well as communicating with BMW. Many of them were told many things by BMW and promised things as simple as return phone calls which NEVER CAME. So they needed to sue BMW/work with the lemon law issues where their state afforded protection. Many of them were refunded money by BMW or had their bikes replaced. Most of them were first time BMW buyers who will now NEVER likely buy a BMW again forever or a VERY LONG TIME. They for the most part were multi-bike/brand owners who were experienced motorcyclists and who knew when BMW was blowing smoke up their ass or giving them the run around. I also have two F650GS based bikes and ride them a lot under very different and hard conditions. I like these bikes a lot, but you'll have to make up your own mind as to whether you want one in your garage DHP#711
• I bought my Dakar in May and have 9+K on it. I've ridden a week of off road in the Appalachian, road home on the highway at 85 and then went to Deals Gap and hung with the squids. I have (trying to sell) a R1100RT and since my wife is riding her own bike (Buell Blast) I've made the Dakar the main ride. I've looked into other dual sports, some are to heavy (1100GS, Tiger, etc) and others don't provide the long distance comfort (KTM, Kawa, etc). I'm very happy with the Dakar and have had no problems besides the remapping of the fuel which the dealer took care of. Next June I'm planning on riding the Trans-American Trail (dirt roads from TN to WA) and back via highway, do to time restraints. These are all my own opinions to take them for what they're worth. The main thing is you have to be happy. I hope I helped. Ed
• My friend, remember that GS 650 is 190kg. I was going to buy DR650 but I ended up with GS-Dakar. The reasons are: comfort for two, wind protection (better that DR), looks and free road service for a few years. On the other hand I would like something lighter at dirt roads, but I can easily travel 700km with 2 up to tour my favorite area. (+my girlfriend likes the seat and the looks). Apart from these, GS does not have suspensions like KTM or Suzuki DR, but it is something you can upgrade anytime ($$$) and it has an awful front fork. But it is strong and they say very reliable. Mine with 15K km has no major problems without extreme use. I think one always want something lighter and something more powerful. Regards, Michalis, Greece.
• GS + ABS or Dakar?
  1. Not to ruin your purchase but why would you be planning to buy a specific bike type yet at the same time not be sure as to which variety to buy. :-) Will try to help you out nonetheless with some feedback.
  2. GS/Dakar/CS all have same basic engine/frame design with small differences for suspension and in the case of the CS a belt drive. All have same basic handling characteristics. Ride one and you'll feel comfortable on any of them.
  3. The Dakar has a "little" more suspension for off-road but it is not 100% as off-road ready as a KTM/WP suspension. It gives a bit more travel but not for too aggressive riding (remember that it's still a bit bike). Biggest change here is the 21" front wheel. ABS is available as of '02 but you can still brake better on/off-road manually if you know how.
  4. ABS is nice on-road, useless off-road. City riding mostly, I'd take a GS which should also be fine for the occasional back road. Your skill much more so that the bike will limit what you can do.
  5. Dakar is no less comfortable on highway than GS.
  6. ABS doesn't "start early". It does work though. However off-road you should turn it off and you can manually outbreak the ABS is you practice on your brakes (you do do this don't you?).
  7. Dakar in city traffic. No problem. You're imagining things here.
  8. Pegaso - well that's up to you. I like the BMW better. DavidHPark #711.
• Not to sound like a moaner but: My 2001 F650GSA has had the following;
  
  a) stalled incessantly for its first year of its life until BMW America was willing to realize that it was not "riding style" but was a computer program issue.
  b) I'm now at Version 10.1. The bike stalls less, but idles at 2000 RPM and now surges. I thought that Bill Gates was the master of versioning, not BMW.
  c) I've had my rad replaced three times under warranty. My bike overheated last week again (not sure the problem yet...but given the track record?!!!).
  d) Paid $9600....found out later that she was worth $8600 new.
  
  After 7800 miles, I love and I hate the bike. I even stopped posting here cuz I felt that I was "bitchin" too much. However, I am not surprised people are unloading this puppy. I will probably ride her a couple of more years and then pass her off to the wife. Then its the bigger toys for me. Cheers...Steve#780
• I have a blast on my Dakar in the city. You sit up high for visibility and have serious flickability. The bags are great. You keep them in the small mode for everyday riding and can expand them for trips. I ride my mostly on road too but to have the ability to go off road is awesome. I can't tell about the width of the handlebars but I have three bikes in the garage with no problem. You can't beat having heated grips and an accessory plug. I still get about 60 miles per gallon on gas. I still ride the Dakar before I get on the other bikes. Ed , Ohio USA #670
• Having ridden both an R1100R and the Funduro in West London I can honestly say I pity those poor sports bike riders with zero visibility, all the weight on the bars and those fragile fairings. F650 wise, if the bars fit the bike will. There is no rev band as such, you just nail the throttle and go (ignore the vibration and odd noises). You can even see over the top of the black slugs (taxis to everyone else). Make sure you get a test ride though. The F will not do 100 mph dashes round the local ring road on a Sunday morning. Apart from that it'll cruise at 90 all day, insurance is about a third of a Fireplace (sorry couldn't resist), the F does 50-70 mpg and F tyres can last 10000 miles plus. Your license will last longer too. Useful contacts are Motorworks and MotoBins for bits and Bennett's for cheap on line insurance.
• GS with tall (Dakar) seat = happy 6'2" rider (me) Don't forget the heated bars and hand guards for in town mirror whacking. I've only hit land cruisers and discoveries so far! Adamx, Devon, uk GSA #1001
• I ABSOLUTELY LOVE RIDING MY 650 and I am proud to come out of the closet! Great little sporty fun ride. I commute about 45 miles each way on mine and have developed a route that is 40% gravel and 10% two lane and 50% Interstate. The 650 does it all great. I am also 5' 11 31/32" (could never get to 6' short *&^%% that I am) and have no problem with the PD. I also upgraded the front springs and that made a hell of a difference in the way the bike handles. Especially under braking and at speed in the corners. Steve on Advrider.
• Progressive front springs are a must and I also spent a considerable amount of $$$ at Touratech. JL on Advrider.
• I have 23.9K miles on my Dakar. Other than normal maintenance items (tires, chain, sprockets, etc.), I've replaced the following:
  approximately four turn signals (they break easy in falls)
  one clutch cable (warranty)
  two mirrors (one warranty, one fall)
  one handlebar weight (vibrated off)
  one sump plug (made of cottage cheese-rounded bolt)
  one fork reflector (blame cattails on the Trenton GS ride)
  one battery (my fault-old battery is still electrically sound, but the terminals are too soft)
• For some reason my 02 F650GSA runs stronger than an 01 version of the same bike I had. But if you can find a good 01 and test ride it, I'd say go for it. Some claim that the 01's had some surge & stall issues, but I never had any problems. Just ask if it has the latest software.
  
  A BMW mechanic told me that the F650GS has the lowest warranty claim rate of any bike BMW makes. I don't know whether this is on a unit basis or on the amount of claim (the latter wouldn't be as impressive). As far as it "shaking itself apart" I find the bike as smooth as my former RT between 10 and 70 mph. Look at the thread on the Alcan 5000. When you drill in to the official web site, you'll notice a number of F650GS's made that wild ride.
  
  It's a great time of year to get one and I got a screaming deal earlier this month on an awesome 02 that had every BMW accessory available (side and top cases, heated grips, engine guard, accessory plug), plus Dakar screen, handguards and seat. The Dakar seat is waaaay more comfortable than the stock. It also had Wunderlich fork books and brace and a Scottoiler (touring version), along with a Touratech GPS mount (for the Garmin SP III). I will post a picture before too long. PM me and I'll let you in on the price for reference.
  
  One other nice thing about the F650GS is that parts seem less expensive. I just bought a Dakar front fender cap. $12.50! Now that's what I'm talking about.
  
  The guy that was selling the 02 F650GS also had an 01 R1150GS for sale, which I test-rode right after the F650. It is a fantastic bike, and I could definitely see owning one someday. But the F650GS is great for most of my missions: lots of city and country riding (some improved dirt roads), mostly day-trips, with the occasional overnight.
  
  One last thing. I just sold my beloved 02 R1150RT as I moved to the F650GS. While the RT is simply fantastic on the slab for grinding out the miles, and has a real sporting character with the bags off, I truly find the F650GS to be more fun to ride. For the 3 weeks that I had both bikes in the garage, I'd always grab the F bike. Oh and I have less than half the $$ invested in my F650GS than I had in the RT. Whew! Bottom line: I may be biased, but I don't think you will regret the move, if the bike fits your mission profile. Sven on Advrider

• The F650GS I have is my first bike. Don't have any friends who ride. So I don't really have anything to compare. But...I have 14000 km on it now, with no problems. I changed the oil once. I put gas in the tank and air in the tires as required. I topped off the coolant once. I busted one turn signal dropping it in gravel. And I had to tighten the bar weight on one side once (heard the rattle)
  I commute 70km a day on the highway and urban core and find it ideal for that. I have had it on dirt and gravel, 2 up on the highway at 160km/h, and a lot of just cruising. So... I can't really compare it to other bikes, but I haven't had any complaints either. I have yet to find it lacking. Shazam on Advrider.

• Well, I took the plunge and got my F650 GSA today. I traded my CBR F4i and took advantage of the financial incentives that BMW is currently giving.
  
  My honest opinion is rather mixed at this point. Coming from a inline 4 to a single took a little getting used to but after 100 miles this evening, I think I'm getting used to it. One thing that is very bothersome is shifting from 1st to 2nd. It's so hard that at first I thought that something was wrong with the transmission. Good thing I wore my stiff boots or I think that I would have strained my angle trying to shift. Is this normal for a GS? I don't remember this on my demo ride.
  
  Please don't take offence but I wanted to post some of my observations:
  1. CBR is a much better street bike. It's much smoother, faster and nimble around traffic.
  2. GS is SLOW! I'm used to going over 100 MPH in a blink of an eye on the CBR. The GS was a struggle just getting to 80 MPH.
  3. GS has no wind protection. My arms and back were getting tired after a while.
  4. The GS's seat is very uncomfortable.
  
  Don't take this as me not liking the GS, in fact I like it much better than my CBR. It's very strange. On the street, the CBR seems superior in every way but I never had as much fun on it as I do on the GS. On the GS, I just want to ride just for the sake of riding. On the CBR, unless I was pushing the performance envelope, I was bored. Ed Northern VA

• Is a Dakar really worth the price? I was at the local BMW dealer looking at a new Dakar. I was quoted $12500 (Canadian Dollars) out the door on a base model without ABS. I really like the bike, and I've always wanted a BMW motorcycle, but that price seems pretty steep. I can get a new Suzuki V-Strom for less, and its a 1000cc bike with nothing but praise from everyone who has ridden it. Heck, a Honda XR650, Suzuki DR650, or Kawasaki KLR650 is about half that price. The BMW does have a nice warranty, but when I mentioned that I want to service the bike myself, the guy at the shop said they couldn't really void the warranty, but they would at least expect me to bring it in for it's first scheduled service at the dealer, and to buy all my fluids from them. I never got that crap when I bought my current Suzuki, which I've serviced myself since day one, and I've never had to fix anything except the usual general maintenance items. To sum it up, Is a BMW F650 Dakar worth all that money (Money is tight for me)? Or should I just stick to Japanese bikes until I have money to spend. Roadwarrior on Advrider

• Not really Sam IMO. You would still need to make some of your cool brackets to fit your soft bags. Then there is the insurance factor. Better off getting a Strom, keep your DRZ if possible then you will have the best of both worlds. Later on when your not so financially embarrassed you could pick up a nice low mileage GS/D to replace your DR. Out here on the Wet Coast used DR's are holding their value pretty good. Used GS/D with bags are going for about 10k Cdn before PST/GST. Deuce on Advrider

• Consider how you will use the bike. on the road it corners great lots of fun. Off road with a few simple mods also a great bike. a little large and cumbersome for single track. excellent for backroad (gravel) touring. slides through turns like a dream problem I find is no one tire is great for both applications. the bike is holding up well for me though only about 4k miles  I ride it like I stole it about 5-7k R's most of the time we have a lot of deep sand here and this bike eats it up I found the BMW financing to be quite attractive at the time I purchased .09% love the warranty 3 years for a thumper oh yea cant go wrong with the Rotax either and BMW engineering/ R&D on a dirt bike has some value After my first ENDO the front fender mirror and taillight assembly were hanging I thought surely I had spent several hundred dollars in damage to my surprise the total for parts with shipping was 36.00 US just my observations and opinions. I'm sure some the more savvy and opinionated will differ from my own. Dakar 650 on Advrider.

• I have seen some notes saying that the little F won't work on longer rides. I'm not much of a long distance rider, but I did 1,200 miles in 20 hours on my '02 F650, and both the bike and I did just fine. All the best.........Lee. Thumper.

• 01'GS(8k mi.)- Starter motor replaced shortly after purchase. Radiator leak started this last weekend on top left side close to the plastic shroud. Definitely not from a rock/debris strike, as there isn't any fin damage and the leak is a pin-hole size one that spurts out like a fine-line water gun. All my riding is street too. Also, the magic self-adjusting mirrors and s&s problems that come & go despite: FI update, snorkelectomy, pipe & fuel nanny. This is my second first-year-release-model BMW (the other an R850R), both plagued by constant problems. The most disappointing thing about both bikes was the great potential each model had for being an awesome bike. jpd793.

• I have 26,200 miles on my 01' Dakar and 18,700 on my wife's 01 GS and the only "serious" problem so far was the fuel pump went out on my Dakar. I ride quite a bit at speeds of 80-85MPH on the highway and some on dirt roads at 50-60MPH. Grt Wht.

• I have late 2001 Dakar with 13,000 kms on it. I ride also 90% on sealed roads of varying quality but have also taken the Dakar over BIG sand dunes, crappy goat tracks and what pass for dirt roads in Outback Australia. I have had a few problems with surging and speedo and starter solenoid (all when the bike was <3 months old). The bike shop were good, never fobbed me off and BMW Australia don't argue to much about warranty issues. All in all fantastic all round bike. IMHO with a decent set of tires (I use MT21's off road) a bit of care and an adventurous spirit, the Dakar will take you anywhere you care to go and in comfort to boot. Only mods I have done is power socket, panniers and progressive front springs (on order). George on Advrider.

• 01 f650-upgrade. Just for your information.....I have an 01 f650 with 16,000 miles. It ran absolutely perfect for first 6000 miles, but then I started having typical problems......engine shutting off when coming to a stop, and hard to start, especially when cold. The dealer, Miller BMW of Tallahassee, Fl (a great dealer, by the way) tried to fix it three times, including downloading latest software, etc. Nothing worked. So he installed a new computer. under warranty, of course. The difference is unbelievable. It runs much stronger and smoother than ever before. It does not shut off when stopping, and it cranks great in 30 degree weather! So if any of you are still having those problems, you might ask your dealer about this. I am sure it is an expensive item, but the improvement is tremendous. We have no idea what was wrong with the original computer, but the new one sure fixed the problem! erm

• Want to buy a F650GS, but...I really think the F650GS is the bike for me, but I've been seeing these awful stories about the fuel injection systems, problems with surging & cutting out, etc... I just recently completed my motorcycle safety course and this will be my first bike and I want to purchase something that can take me to most of the places I want to go and last for many years. I'm just a working man and can't afford thousands of dollars in maintenance and repair costs. Is this bike a good choice for me? Have these problems been taking care of on the 2003 models? I guess I'm looking for what others have experienced and what their maintenance costs and repairs have amounted to. netminder33

• Why I owned the F650GS.
  1. looks good
  2. worldwide service
  3. nice forum :)
  4. better than a Harley
  5. never owned a BMW before coz they can't fly till now.
  7. lots of accessories
  8. you can change the look of the bike. www.touratech.de
  9. single piston engine
  10. cheap maintenance by yourself
  11. good touring bike
  
  Why I would disown the F650GS
  1. cant do anything with fuel injection
  2. slack suspension if you are into offroad
  3. heaviest bike for its class
  4. ?????????????????
  scx, The Singapore BMW F650GS Dakar

• It's a great bike. Don't pay too much attention to negative comments about the F650 - this board is often frequented by those having trouble (and seeking solutions). Every single person I know or have met owning an F650 GS have not experienced ANY surging problems of significance (ANYTHING fuel injected surges). If the surging worries you, then look at the older F650s - pre-2001. They are often referred to as Classics on the board. Great bike, I have one and am very happy with it. I have ridden many large trailies, and the F650 (Classic and GS) is a pretty special bike. It's also a surprisingly capable little tourer, and keen to go on just about any terrain. Bernard Voges

• The F650 is a great "all around" bike . It has a bullet proof motor, decent handling , and useful on various road surfaces( it is not a dirt bike-it is a dirt road bike) .Don't be too concerned about all the stuff you read about the machines; every machine has certain quirks and this single is no different. This is a forum where riders seek advice, and granted, it sounds negative but it doesn't have to be interpreted that way. Everything requires maintenance and this bike is no different from any other. The early carb models are just a lot less complex than the newer GS 's. Plus, you have and instant family; the CG, BMWMOA, BMWRA and a many many other groups. GO FOR IT !! Steve #1059 in MA

• My GS was built in May '01 and runs like a dream. I feel that nothing can zip around the neighborhood like the GS. Couldn't ask for anything more. I had BMW do the 600 service but thereafter go to a local service shop which gives the bike all it needs at nowhere near BMW prices. Art 884

• The F650 is my second bike but I got it for the exact same reasons you have. I used to own a sport bike but found it too limiting since I wanted to ride on tame trails and dirt roads. Its not very fast if you are used to a sport bike, in fact its lack of power can be frustrating-again this is all relative to what you're used to since the 650 can out- accelerate just about any 4 wheeled traffic (however- it runs out of steam at the top end). My bike was built 4/02 and it has the fuel injection problems but except for in one or two instances when it was very bad, it's just an annoyance more than a safety issue. Bottom line: The bike is not exceptional in any areas but competent in many. I'm glad I bought it. esef

• I have had my F650 for 6 years and 30,000 miles. I have never had a problem. I even still have the original battery. Go for a long test ride on the bike. If you like it then buy one. However, expect the periodic maintenance costs to be higher than most Japanese bikes, if performed at a dealer. Richard #230

• I'm someone who can afford just one bike, yet wants to do everything and go anywhere, so this is the best bike made, I believe. The weight makes it a pig on narrow, technical trails, but at 6'1" and 200 pounds, it works OK for me. But I surely do like that weight on the freeway. No problems with surging here. Scott, ID #1244

• I think everyone has pretty much answered with all the positives I would conjure up to describe my bike. I bought it in August of this year, it was produced in January of 2002 (if I remember right). I've experienced mild surging, very mild... between 3 & 4K RPM particularly in second gear if I'm not accelerating hard. I got this bike as my first "real" bike after rebuilding and riding a 1980 Kawasaki KL250 for a while. I can't imagine a bike I would be happier with at this juncture: 5 years down the line I might opt for a larger more tour-oriented bike like the CapoNord or VStrom or something, but for now the F650GS is the perfect bike for me. BMW also has the most killer test-ride program out there. When I went to the dealer here, the salesman tossed me the keys and said "I don't want to see you for at least an hour, but you should take 2." That gave me a very good feeling for the bike and its capabilities. Anyhow, it's not the cheapest bike in the universe, but I can't imagine a bike I'd be happier with. Furthermore, there is no other bike that has the support structure that this board and group provides: anything you'd ever want to do with or for the bike is covered in the FAQ section, laid out in very simple to use instruction. It's absolutely priceless! Just my long winded $.02, worth exactly what you paid for them! Seacuke #1214

• I used to ride Enduros and put up with uncomfortable seats, tons of vibration and no wind protection just to get that nice, upright seating position. I've always picked Enduros over sportbikes because to me this seating position was the most comfortable. Now I have the best of both worlds. The F650GS just feels like it was made for me. I get on the bike, I feel at home. It's hard to explain. I love the riding position, vibration is minor compared to the old XL600R, it's not as tall (big plus since I'm not that tall), it handles very well, it runs very smooth (no surging detected here), I love the fuel injection and it's got plenty of power (living at altitude-no loss of power with big altitude changes), I can deck it out with all kinds of goodies and add-ons and it looks really nice. Yes, it's not a cheap bike, but then again-I waited this long to get the bike I really wanted so I justify the expense. I love this bike! '03 black F650GSA. Runaway #1259 (CO)

• I agree with the above...the F650 is an expensive bike for what you get. But that is offset by the great deals BMW has on financing... I bought my Dakar for .9% interest over five years. No other manufacturer offers that. (nor can you get a loan anywhere for a mc for that) That works out to $120 a month. A great deal IMHO. As far as the bike itself after 30 years of motorcycling the Dakar is one of the sweetest riding bikes I've ever had. Its lighter in weight than many bikes which makes for easy handling. Comfortable for long trips. Nice power. (but not awesome) Very good shifting and clutch. Very good braking. A pleasure to ride. As for the mechanical problems (surging) I've had a little of that, but I can live with it. Still, for $8.5k it should NOT do that. When I bought the bike the salesman started and rode the bike very observantly, obviously looking for that problem. Mine didn't happen until about 600 miles and then only on one or two rides since. (I didn't know about the problem when I bought it) Oh yeah the two front motor mount bolts were missing! Inexcusable! BMW came and trucked the bike back to the shop and installed them. I suggest you INSIST on a test ride before you take delivery of the actual bike. That may not reveal anything but if it does reject the bike. Good luck! echo

• One more advice: I'd buy the demo bike, if you feel it is ok. You usually get a price break on it, plus you know it is ok. I wouldn't worry about the engine break-in or abuse by other's who took it for a demo ride. It's basically like buying a slightly used bike, but with the full warranty. 2001 F650 GSA. its_xls

• This is my second 2001 BMW F650GS, BMW was forced to purchase back my first bike due to surging and stalling. Make sure if you buy a new bike that surges that you make every attempt to have it repaired so if you are unhappy with the bike you can force them to buy it back. I guess the moral to my story is I had a terrible experience with my first BMW but this is a great bike and just a pleasure to ride. Tracy. Tweber.

• 650 Dakar first 600 miles. Well, got the first 600 miles done on the ABS Dakar. It is turning out to be a better bike than I had expected, due to a lot of negative reports I had seen. Most of those reports were from people with different expectations than maybe what I am trying to do with it. I am trying to keep it a true 50/50 dualsport/streetbike. It's fast for a single, but you have to rev it to get the thing to move. No low down grunt on this bike. This is great for street, but a little weird for dirt riding. She handles great on the street, with maybe just a bit of squirming from the dualsport tires. In the dirt she is comfortable to about 60% pace. Try to up things and it bottoms out everywhere and it's not happy at that pace. Interesting thing about the ABS, on my 1150GS, I usually keep the ABS on in the dirt. The dual front brake and 19 inch wheel are just to touchy to turn it off for me. However, on the Dakar, I am running much faster on the same dirt roads and I really need to lock the rear coming into corners, and the 21 inch tire just bites better in the dirt. So on the Dakar, I turn the ABS off for the dirt. It's a big heavy pig, but compared to my 1150GS, light as a feather. I think the stock suspension springs are set up for a 130lb rider. It's one big marshmallow for a 230lb rider. It doesn't sit on it's suspension right either. So the fork has no adjustment for preload, which is stupid (I'm hearing some Honda 41mm adjustable preload caps will work....have to check on this). Anyway, I measured the front sag with me on board, and it is only about 2 inches. I got 8.23 inches of travel, so I should have about 2.7 inches of sag. So this tells me the front end is too pre-loaded, but the springs are too soft anyway. It's all screwed up. I will try some Touratech springs and set the sag correctly, this should help. On the rear, the stock preload setting had me with 4 inches of rider sag, which is about 1.5 inches too much. No wonder the thing handled a bit funny on the ride home from the dealer. I have the rear set to 2.6 inches now, but the preload is almost maxed out. Too bad too, cause it's not a bad shock at all, just needs a spring. Maybe, I can find one for it. (Nothing about it on the Chain Gang site). I can get a WP shock, but It has no remote preload adjustment, so you have to remove the subframe and tank to adjust the threaded collars. WTF. So looks like a hydraulic adjust Ohlins for me, when I can afford it. Brakes are excellent. Stock mufflers are a heavy joke. Sebring looks nice for these. Touratech centerstand would be nice. Think I'll get the heated grips for it also. I'd like to find a foam air filter for it, but that doesn't seem to be around. Only the stock paper or a K&N. I've never been a K&N fan. ShaftEd on Advrider.

• I, as you, also use mine (Dakar) 50/50 and I think it works great. It's my first dual sport though, so I don't have anything to compare with. I think it works GREAT on gravel roads. Stock tires (Metzeler Sahara/Enduro3) are really good and of course they've nailed the design part. The front springs are gone this season though. Wunderlich has WP springs and Touratech has their brand (dunno which brand they sell). It dives like an Italian soccer player and bottoms out like a drunk English hooligan as soon as you leave the gravel for more rough surfaces. Kit Fahrwerk F650 Rallye/GS/DAKAR *** not with ABS * + * Euro 2.308,00.......from Touratech. (# 01-300-0010-0 ) I know, it says not for ABS, but look at the rear WP. "Components for a perfectly adjusted frame.  Experienced chassis designers advised us on selecting the components and on the overall adjustment. WP suspension shocks with separate compression adjuster Spring travel 250 mm For BMW F650 GS DAKAR and BMW F650 Rallye. Calliper support
  Ignition switch support and wheel sensor support Handlebar clamps Steering rod and axle Yokes WP Shocks" Stock sound is somewhat lame. I feel the most noise is coming from the intake area and not the mufflers ? I want to replace the stock exhaust, but I don't want a single side muffler. Remus makes this. (No pictures though) F650GS products. It makes a huge improvement to the sound as well. Listen to the sound of the Remus. Click "Sounds", on the bottom left and choose your bike. Series = stock, Remus = d'uh ! Aridriel on Advrider

• I love my Dakar. Yes it is not an 1150, but I wanted something smaller for jeep trails and city travel. Plus I saved about $6,500. I have fixed some minor Dakar problems. I have installed heated grips, installed a Touratech center stand (now more room in garage), removed the rear wheel hugger that would only rip the tail light off anyway, installed Metzelers Karoo's, a BMW acc. power socket, and most importantly installed Touratech's progressive springs. What a difference. This eliminated 95% of the nose dive and make brakes feel more confident. This is the first thing anyone should do. Either RaceTech or Touratech. Best Thumper in class, power, handling, styling, and comfortability. P.S. Karoo's wear extremely quickly when used on pavement. Riding aggressively and weighting 165 pounds I will see only 2000 miles before I need to replace the rear. Doug on Advrider.

• I'm about to bring my bike (f650gs) in for 600 mile look-over. I noticed today that the handle bar clamp looks like it is attached unevenly? Could it have come loose? Screws are tight, but shouldn't the pieces be nice and flush against each other? Mine have a gap on each corner, and this gap is larger on one side as compared to the other. Padraig on Advrider.

• It would not surprise me either. But we have a 650 Dakar and it has the fork boots. It experienced cooling problems when the computer went bad and was not sending enough amperage to the fan to make it start. Computer eventually was replaced under warranty but not until going to a different dealer. Nobody ever said anything about the fork boots as an issue at either of the two dealers that I visited to solve the cooling problem. As far as the spring upgrades, changing the front springs is the first thing that I would recommend anybody do. Very easy to do and instant improvement over the stock springs. Steve

• Hi everyone. I just got back from my first Baja trip. My first comment will be: NOT THE RIGHT BIKE FOR THE TRIP.... I love my 2001 F650 GS (it was yellow) but for Baja you need a different bike, lighter, higher, and less expensive (so you don't worry if you drop it). I dropped my so many times that I think I will not care about keeping clean anymore. A lot of external damage. I have to say that the bike is built very well because despite the beating it did not break internally at any time. It still runs great, it just does not look very nice. In my opinion the two major factors that contributed to my problems were: 1) Lack of training: I would consider myself an intermediate driver. I'm 5'6'', 160lbs. This bike is extremely heavy for a person of my size. You spend so much energy fighting the bike that when you need that energy it's just not there. A more experienced person would probably offset this problem better. 2) Right tires: I took the advise of some people on this site, and others as well , and took the TKC80's.....WRONG!!!!! In Baja you want Knobbies and nothing else. No if's or butts. The terrain is a mixture of different types of sand and dirt.....soft in some areas and hard in others....I took the majority of my falls when going over soft beach sand at turns....the TKC's would not stick. After a while you lose your confidence and ......you are done. At one point I was so tired, and this is embarrassing, that I traded bikes with one of my friends (a 350dr Suzuki with Knobbies) .My way back to camp was so much easier and fun. My friend, who is a better rider than I, fell off one time before taking it slow. I have heard many good stories about Baja in this chat room. I'm sure these are better riders than me. But next time I go to Baja I will not take my Gs....I'll by me an all dirt bike with the biggest knobbies there are. Except for a few scratches I'm all right. Regards, DAN802

• Next.

How fast will this bike go from 0 - 60 mph?
 

Has anyone done any timings at a track on their F650? How about 0 to 100?

• From the July 2000 Motorcyclist Magazine test of the F650GS: Quarter Mile: 13.76 seconds @ 91.60 mph, 0-60: 5.41 seconds, fuel mileage: 33 to 56 mpg with an average of 45 mpg. Weight with a full tank: 442 pounds. - Richard #230

• From Motorcyclist magazine :
  
  F650 CS (July '02):
  
  0-60: 4.52 secs
  0-100: 16.55 secs
  60 - 80 top-gear roll-on: 4.77 sec
  1/4 mile: 13.01 @ 97.71 mph
  
  F650 GS (July '00):
  
  60 - 80 top-gear roll-on: 6.03 sec
  1/4 mile: 13.76 @ 91.6 mph
  
  (I don't have the 0-60 or 0-100 for the GS, sorry.)
  - Wil in Arizona, USA

• Ha! 110... no way. I used to think that too until I installed a bicycle computer that is calibrated to my front wheel. So on my Dakar the BMW speedo reads about 8% too optimistic. Yesterday I got to 102 on my BMW speedo and the bike computer showed 95mph. At freeway speeds it's off by about 5mph.
  
  So if you get to 110 indicated it's probably about 102 in reality.
  -Jim Robertson, '01 Dakar, Aptos, CA, #1022.

No preference or recommendations given.
Dealers sites, regardless of whether for new, used, BMW or non BMW bikes will NOT be listed, only non-profit organisations.

USA

• The Classifieds on f650.com
• http://www.ibmwr.org/market/cat/fbs.html