F650 History, Differences and Purchasing FAQ

compiled & edited by Kristian #562
Updated by Scott #1244
Please read the Disclaimer before attempting any work in this FAQ.
Last Updated: 19 March 2007, by Winter #1935

• Introduction
• History and Development of the F650
  • Historical Overview
    • In the Beginning
    • F650 Classic (Funduro) and ST
    • Single Spark GS, Dakar and CS
    • Dual Spark GS, Dakar and CS
    • Future, Speculation and Rumors (2007-on?)
  • Other Sources for Classic F and GS Bike History
  • Who Designed the F650?
    • F650 Classic Design
    • F650 GS/Dakar Design
• Model Specs and Differences
  • Model Specs Table
  • Descriptive Changes
    • Differences between the Classic F and the Classic ST
    • What about the low power version 25kW as opposed to the 37kW normal version?
    • Differences between the Classic F and the F650GS/Dakar
    • 650GS Dakar 2001 or 2002 or 2003 or 2004
  • Other Rotax 650 Bikes
  • What about Sidecars?
  • What about Trailers?
  • Do any Police Forces or Armies use them?
• Comparisons, Reviews and Opinions
  • Opinions on the F650 GS vs. F650 GS/Dakar
  • Opinions on the Classic vs. the GS/Dakar
  • F650 vs. BMW 1150R
  • F650 vs. BMW 1150GS (or 1100GS)
  • F650GS VS BMW K75
  • F650 vs. BMW 1100RT
  • F650 vs. Honda Transalps
  • F650 vs. Kawasaki KLR
  • KLR vs. KTM vs. Dakar
  • URAL Anyone?
  • F650 vs. Triumph Tiger
  • F650 vs. Honda XR650
  • Other Website Reviews
  • Opinions for Tall Riders
• Purchasing
  • Buying an F650 - What to watch out for
  • Importing into the US (from Canada / Germany)
  • Selling an F650
  • Evaluating a Classic - Feedback
  • Evaluating an F650GS or GS/Dakar - Some Opinions
  • Where can I buy a Used One?

Other General FAQs about the F650:

• Beginners Guide to the FAQs
• Riding Tips FAQ
• Break-inFAQ.htm
• CleaningFAQ.htm

Other FAQs about F650 aftermarket options / modifications:

• Is there any way to convert the GS/Dakar to a Supermono/SuperMoto
• Is there any way to convert the GS/GSA to a Dakar?
• Classic Performance Modifications FAQ
• GS Performance Mods FAQ
• High Mileage FAQ

So you want to buy an F650 and do not know which bike is for you? Or you want to know the differences between the bikes? This FAQ contains information about the differences between the bikes, and what to lookout for when you purchase the bike. A lot of the specific differences between the bikes are listed in the table at the top of this FAQ. However below that you can find descriptions of the changes.

Thanks to Richard #230

Here is a little F650 history lore for you from page 50-51 of the November issue of Motorcyclist magazine: The designer of the "Classic" F650 model was Martin Logmore, who is now the Chief Designer for Aprilia and has just redesigned the Aprilia Mille. He is a 45-year old Scot, born in Edinburgh and a 1982 graduate of London's Royal College of Art. He first worked for Ford, then moved to Britain's leading design house, IAD in Worthing. He then worked for Volvo and GM in California. Eventually, Longmore ended up in Munich working for BMW's Motorcycle Design Group, while David Robb was still in the car division. BMW had a contest between the bike and car design teams to design their new car and Longmore, in the bike division, won the contest with the design of the original BMW Z3 - apparently pissing off the designers in the auto division.

His next creation for BMW was the F650 Funduro, which he designed and styled personally, and whose creation in the mid-1990s first bought him into contact with Aprilia, who manufactured the bike for BMW. In 1993, Longmore moved to Audi and designed the TT Coupe. He was recruited by Aprilia in 1997 and has been working for them as an outside consultant, while he lives and works in Munich. Something for the History section of the FAQ.

by Flash #412 et al., October '01, updated by Winter #1935 October 2006

F650 Classic (Funduro) and ST

In the beginning, Rotax built the motors for Aprilia and BMW. Aprilia built the bikes for both. Rotax is Austrian and Aprilia is Italian. The motors are not identical, though they do share many parts. The BMW head is four valve, dual plugged and the Aprilia is five valve, single spark plug. Besides the cams themselves being different, cam timing is different, too. The Pegaso makes more horsepower, with a peakier curve than the BMW which has a flatter horsepower curve and most of the torque delivered over a much wider rpm range.

1994 was the first model year for the BMW F650 Funduro in Europe. The Funduro remained unchanged until 1997. There was also the ST (sport touring). (I forget the model years). The main differences between the Funduro and ST are fairing shape and size of the front wheel. The motor, frame, ass-end of the bike and so forth are all identical. More information on the differences between the F and the ST are discussed below.

In 1997, the bike was certified for the USA. This changed the Euro-spec bikes, too. This model remained unchanged to the end of its run in 2000. The fairing and (black plastic) engine covers for '97 on have a different shape. The windshield is different, too. I believe the tank covers are identical, which would mean you could swap fairings (with engine covers & windshield) between early and late versions. The early version had bug-eye turn-signals, built into the fairing. The late version has indicators on stalks which bolt to the fairing.

The early version has a self-returning Sidestand and the late version has an (easily defeated) ignition cut-out switch. The early version had a removable gas cap. The late version has a hinged gas cap. The early version has a temperature gauge on the left side. The late version has a clock in that hole. The idiot lights are different, to match the lack of temp gauge. (Fitting a temp gauge instead of an idiot light means changing the sender, too.) The Euro version has a light switch on the right control (missing on the later version) allowing OFF, ON, and PARK.

There are a whole bunch of parts identical between the Funduro and the Pegaso, too many to list here. (I don't even know what-all.) But if you put them side by side, you'll see lots of IDENTICAL stuff as well as lots of stuff that has the identical form and function, which will clearly FIT. I am told that the Aprilia has ball bearings for crank mains and BMW uses plain bearings. But this has not been verified, yet.

The ST model was only available in the US in '97 and '98. NOT available in 99. So if its a '99 F650 it isn't a ST (US Only).

Single Spark GS, Dakar and CS

For the 2001 model year, starting manufacture in mid-late 2000, BMW took the bike in-house. They revamped the design of the bike, almost entirely. The new bikes benefit from fuel injection and the gas tank residing under the seat, with a faux tank cover... someone who owns one can say what. ABS became available. The motor now has four valves and one spark plug. There is a GS and Dakar models which are very closely aligned. The Dakar has a bigger front wheel and higher seat height. Graphics differ.

BMW had a recall on the gas tanks of the early F.I. models. BMW had a recall on a rear brake strut of pre (date?) units. And many feel that BMW SHOULD have a recall on the fuel injection system. (Others are quite happy.) Surging and stalling are the main complaints about the F.I. with various fixes available, including an updated map, an updated Software installation version, replacing the injector nozzle with one from the R1150, an updated pressure regulator and someone found drilling holes in the Airbox snorkels helped. (Why BMW can't FIX the thing has many people stymied.) Common lore is that when threatened with litigation, BMW has bought back F.I. bikes which can not be civilized, under non-disclosure agreements. Note that the bikes BMW gave the press for the US introduction were NOT USA-spec bikes, but Canadian.

In the US "2000" models are special editions to use up the last of the old frames and have marks like FL. These differ only in bodywork details to the Funduro and ST. 2001 saw the first of the FI models. GS and the new CS are the direct replacements for the Funduro and ST respectively, but have more mechanical differences. A Dakar is a GS with additional off road refinements (like a 21 front wheel). All are great bikes.

Dual Spark GS, Dakar and CS

In 2004 BMW released a dual spark version of the GS, Dakar and CS. A new faster F.I. computer was added, and a few other minor cosmetic changes such as the dash, rear tail "glove compartment" and adjustable clutch lever. The dual spark and revamped F.I. computer seemed to deal with many of the Surging and Stalling problems with the earlier single spark models. It also improved fuel consumption, and reduced emissions, and had an adjustable clutch lever.

The G650X Models

In October 2006, BMW released the G650X series of bikes. Although these models are not "real" F650s bikes, they are very similar in many ways (that we know of right now). They use the same basic engine (the Rotax 654), with 1hp more (at 53hp), and a smaller alternator (280Watts) compared to larger dual spark Fuel injected models. A smaller 9.5L tank (compared to the 17.3L tank on GS/Dakar models) with 2.0L reserver, and a much lighter weight of 156kg (ready to ride, compared to ~192kg of the GS/Dakar models). More information to come when we have it...

Future, Speculation and Rumors (2007-on?)

Although unclear on release dates (including when or if certain models will be available in the US) speculation includes:

• An F800GS - based on the Rotax 800cc parallel twin (there are currently no plans for the Chain Gang FAQs to support this model)
• An F650 HP - based on the same Rotax 654 engine, however in a lightweight / similar styling to the BMW HP2
• A 450cc single - probably based on a Rotax 450cc single (note: Cam-am/BRP/Rotax is also planning some new high performance 450cc single ATV)

• There is also some more information on the history of the F on Adrian Jowett's Web page.
• http://www.bmwmotorrad.co.za/motorcycles/f_series/f650/f650_strada.html F650 vs. F650 ST
• http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcbmw/97f650.html The F650 Specs - not GS
• http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcbmw/97f650st.html F650ST Specs with Differences to F650
• For Photos of the Different 650's see Trevor's Website see http://www.bmwf650.co.uk
• One of the best places to find BMW model info is BMW of Santa Cruz. e.g. The 1999 Model: http://www.bmwscruz.com/BMW/1999/index.html
• There's a pretty good pictorial history of BMWs, including the F650, at this website, too. http://www2.tower.org/museum/index.html. Just click on BMW. (Norm#874)
• Some Basic History http://home.wanadoo.nl/menk/_f650/funduro_basics_eng.html#start
• German Forum: http://www.f22.parsimony.net/forum39715/
• British Forum: http://www.trevorgeorge.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/index.htm
• French & English http://www.f650.info/
• Long Term Test http://www.cmgonline.com/articles/CMG02/bikes/BMW/F650GS_Dakar/index.html
• Good Technical Details. http://www.bmwmotorrad.co.za/bikes/workshop/davidChall.asp

This was a Topic of Some Debate.

F650 Classic Design

• From http://home.wanadoo.nl/menk/_f650/funduro_basics_eng.html "The F650 was designed by the Englishman Martin Longmore and got several designer prizes." That is somewhat validated at http://www.bmwmotorrad.co.za/motorcycles/f_series/f650/f650_strada.html where it says, "Freelance English designer, Martin Longmore, provided styling to clearly define the bike as a BMW, and his rounded, organic shape certainly distinguishes the F650 from the motocrosser appearance of its rivals." Now, these aren't specifically about the GS and I suppose that there's a good chance that someone else deserves credit for the GS model much like Robb takes credit for the CS but the GS is closer to the basic design that then CS. Gerry #951
• Martin Longmore is again validated by http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcbmw/97f650.html which says "For BMW to use an Austrian engine in a bike built in Italy and still have it look and feel like a BMW required careful design planning. Various configurations were experimented with before the final nod was given to a draft by freelance stylist Martin Longmore."

F650 GS/Dakar Design

• David Robb has been with BMW for years as chief designer and is behind the design of every current model BMW sells. You can mail my doughnut now. Here's the response from BMW RA. SScratch '01 Dakar Nashville

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Robert Hellman
  To: BMWRA
  Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 2:54 PM
  Subject: Re: Settle a bet?
  
  You are right.
  
  ROTL
  
  ----------
  From: "BMWRA"
  To: "Robert Hellman"
  Subject: Fw: Settle a bet?
  Date: Thu, Sep 5, 2002, 10:36 AM
  
  RE: Q from member # 25526 below
  
  FWD to Robert Hellman, OTL Editor, chefrad@erols.com
  
  From
  Linda Gotcher
  Interim Association Administrator while Ed Jorgensen is on Active Duty (U.S. Army)
  PO Box 120430
  West Melbourne, FL 32912-0430
  Phone/Fax: 321-984-7800
  E-Mail: bmwra@cfl.rr.com
  Webpage: www.bmwra.org
  
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Steve Stratz
  To: bmwra@cfl.rr.com
  Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 11:08 AM
  Subject: Settle a bet?
  
  Could you possibly settle a bet as to the designer of the current F650GS & 
  Dakar models? I say David Robb is the chief designer of ALL current BMW 
  models, whereas a friend says that although he doesn't know who designed the 
  GS, it was not Robb or anyone else at BMW. I think he's been reading too much 
  American Iron instead of OTL.
  BTW, thanks for printing my rant on new BMW designs. It was quite unexpected. 
  Steve Stratz
  

• SO That's THAT.

Footnotes

1. When BMW released the dual spark FI models in the US, the first model was the 2005 - despite the bike being released in 2004. This was probably a marketing ploy - buying next years model is better right?
2. Fuel Grade - BMW typically specifies Premium Unleaded fuel with higher octane ratings. However most F650 riders experience surging and stalling problems and find Regular Unleaded is more suitable.
3. Fuel Reserve - some sources suggest a reserve of 4.5L
4. Fuel Capacity (US models) - US models contain a charcol canister (for emmisions) which takes up some of the fuel tank space.
5. Fuel Consumption - based on BMW figures, some sources state 3.4L/100kms and 4.5L/100kms for 90km/h and 120km/h respectively.
6. Coolant - Coolant and Antifreeze are two different things. Have a look in the FAQs for the non-nitrate AND non-silicate coolant.
7. F650 Seat Height - For '97 models onwards, the seat height for the F650 is specified as 810mm / 31.9in
8. Fuel Capacity - Due to the emmissions control cannister on US models, these bikes have 15.5L tanks. See the GS Fuel Tank FAQ

by Mason #631

There's a very comprehensive review of both bikes at BMW Zambia. This FAQ only notes the Funduro/Strada differences: Here's the source, BMW Zambia and it jives with what I can see on my ST.

• Sold right alongside BMW's new dual-purpose single will be its fraternal twin, the F650 Street. As the name implies, this is a more street-oriented version of the F650.
• Both bikes share spoke wheels, but the ST uses an 18-inch front rim, one inch smaller than the F650. The result is quicker steering and a lower seat height for the ST.
• Tires are chosen purely for road work, with a set of Metzeler street tires replacing the F650's Enduro rubber.
• Other differences include a lower windscreen on the ST, designed to function more effectively at higher speeds (although the F650's taller screen will bolt right on the ST).
• The ST's handlebars are narrower, allowing a more tucked-in position for freeway riding while the F650's wider bars allow more leverage off-road.
• Front fender design differs between the two bikes as well. A higher unit is fitted to the F650 to provide more clearance for dirt and mud, and side extensions cover the lower fork legs to protect them from stones chips.
• Also offering more protection is the F650's front engine plate which tucks in tighter to protect the engine, while the ST's functions more as an aerodynamic spoiler
• By reducing rear wheel travel from the Funduro's 6.5 to 4.7 on the Strada, BMW significantly reduced the seat height (31.5 on the F650, 30.9 on the F650ST), a very significant consideration for many riders.
• BMW will also be offering a lowering kit comprised of a modified swingarm and shock stop with matching shorter side and Centrestands that will reduce the seat height further to 29.5 for the F650 and 28.9 for the ST
• The two F650s diverge most in the rubber they wear. The Funduro is equipped with a 2.15 x 19 front rim, and 3.00 x 17 rear, and rides on dual-purpose tires. The Strada street bike is fitted with a 2.15 x 18 front hoop shod with a bias-ply rayon Metzeler 100/90 ME33 Lazer, and carries a gumball Metzeler 130/80 MEZ2 radial on a 3.00 x 17 rim out back. The MEZ2 is a marvellous tire, producing both prodigious grip and very clear feedback that allow you to lay the F650 way down in corners with unusual confidence. Because the tire is not a very low profile, it could possibly be a retrofit (with a wider rim) to many older bikes whose riders wish they could benefit from modern radial rubber. If this applies to you, check out the MEZ2
• Minor stylistic differences in the front fenders, lower engine fairings, handlebars and the somewhat curious fact that the Funduro carries a standard windshield, while the Strada does not, are the only other differences besides the front wheel and tires. BMW says the ST was made for commuting, so it doesn't need a windshield. (We disagree, and have ordered one for a long-term test on our ST).
• The instrument dial faces on the ST are black, not white as they are on the standard Funduro. The lower rear mud guard is also different.
• Pre 97 Funduro's had low screens and faired in indicators. Belly pans were black, so was the plastic below the tank. 97-99 Funduro's had tall screens and stalk indicators. Belly pans were black, so was the plastic below the tank. All ST's came with low screens and stalk indicators, but the early ones had no belly pan and the later ones (98?) got colour coded ones. (I am not going to call that bit of plastic a bash plate). Other plastic started black then went silver (98 again?). The only sure fire way to spot an early ST vs. a mid 97 Funduro (with all the mods to screens etc.) is the 18 front wheel and lower suspension.
• Regarding the differences between the original F and the ST, you may be interested to note that the two bikes have different center and side stands. I found this out the hard way - I bought a lowered ST without the stock parts then purchased stock parts from an F owner and had the lowering kit removed. So now the bike is at the original stock height with F (not ST) center and side stands. My turning radius is shot because I drag the center and side stands all over the place in tight curves. Jesse
• They are ALMOST identical. Having owned both a couple of '96 and a couple of >+'97 models, I can say that the later fairing makes the bike slightly easier to work on. All the parts will interchange between the two bikes except for fairing PIECES. You CAN swap the entire fairing (with lowers, radiator cross piece & windscreen) between the bikes if you like. However, the earlier Funduros come with a temp gauge instead of the clock that is in the later ones. This is pretty easy to change if you like. There is a FAQ on the temp gauge. Flash #412

I have a 650F '96 with its HP reduced to 25 kW. Previous owner said that the only thing done was changing the manifold, nothing done in the carbs. The manifold has a 25 kW mark on it. He gave me the original manifold.

• Many reduced-power bikes do so with a carb slide limiter that prevents the carb slide (s) from raising beyond a certain height in the carb bodies. I am not sure how this is handled with FI bikes. Richard #230
• Honda does their limiting this way as well. The manifold doesn't have a big influence at lower rpm, and at the upper ones appears like lower revs to the carburettor. rakaD
• Reducing HP. From the comments on the German site regarding "drosselung" it's a fairly simple change over on the fuel injected models, but there are several things that are changed on the classic F
• On the fuel injected models, the throttle cable is attached in a different slot on the throttle body, thus reducing the ammount by which the throttle can be opened.
• Important: If you have a restricted license, it may be illegal for you to "increase" the power of your bike.

by Eben Fourie, Andy Leeds UK

• The GS faux tank cover as Flash puts it, hides the oil tank (left), the air filter (right) and the battery (centre).
• Different spec tires. Dakar gets either Michelin Sirac or Metzeler Tourance (at least in South Africa).
• Higher windshield and hand protectors standard.
• The seat itself is thicker, and ground clearance is 4cm higher - 210mm suspension travel (front and rear).
• Suspension pre-load has 50 clicks rather than the 20 click of street GS.
• Power ratings The Carbed F650 (old F) is 48 hp at the sprocket, with Dyno tests showing 41 at the rear wheel (Dyno test at 1500 miles). The FI F650 is 50 hp at the sprocket, so probably 43 at the wheel. The Aprilia Pegaso is (I think 55 hp) at least in the brochure. I think the magazines compared book ratings with Dyno test ratings and probably took no account of the RPM either. Given manufacturers quote power and weight from whatever source they like (Honda don't even put oil the engine when the weigh it for the brochure) it is impossible to compare bikes without a test ride. 3 hp or 5 kg makes no difference in the real world.

• 2002 model has lugs on the fork brace for the lower mudguard addition.
• The 2002 model has a different (stronger) mounting in the rear under the little storage cover behind the seat.
• I have had both a 2001 and a 2002 GS. No big differences. 2001 models produced after a certain date [1-1-01?] have the new injector and mapping. Ones made before then can be converted. All 2002 models are correct.
• Probably the biggest difference between the '01 and '02 Dakar models is the availability of ABS on the '02 as an option. It was not available at all on the '01.
• There are no changes at all for 2003 Dakar. The only changes are to the standard GS and that is the colour black has been dropped and another colour as been added don't know what it is yet. KiwiDakar (02)
• Q. Is there some user with GS Dakar model white/black with ABS, or ABS is only option with the latest model, that is only Blue?
  A. Only 2002 (on) GS Dakar has ABS option (i.e. as far as I know ONLY blue/white/red).
• Q. 2002-2003 Changes?
  A. There are new colors. Titan Silver (gray), Bi-color gray/ yellow, Yellow and I guess a blue. Guz.
• 01GS to 03 GS Changes
  1. Different style front fork bridge
  2. Added support plate under rear storage compartment
  3. Front axle spacer changed from aluminum to steel. Raymo #1173, Chicago, 2001 F650GSA
• Dakar has always had a separate rear shock reservoir. In '02 it was moved to a more visible location on the frame on ABS equipped bikes. Maybe all bikes regardless of ABS in '03 has it on frame? The same as most manufacturers BMW always try to have multiple suppliers so brand of tires may change in production at any time. I got Michelin Sirac on my '02 as well.
• 04's Now have the BMW Low Front Fender as OEM.

1. The Bimota BB1 Supermono. Here's Mal's.
   

2. Chrysalis F650. http://www.chrysalisracing.co.uk/ or http://www.iommgp.com/press-releases/chrysalis.shtml.
3. Norton C652SM

4. Bombardier DS 650 ATV http://www.bombardier-atv.com or http://www.rotax.bombardier.com/index_e.htm
5. Bombardier Seadoo
6. Aprilia Pegaso
7. MuZ Skorpion
8. Jawa 650
9. See also http://home.wanadoo.nl/menk/_f650/funduro_ander_eng.html (for the Bimota BB1, Chrysalis F650, and Norton C652SM)
10. John Deere ATVs: Trail Buck 650 / EXT / EX. See http://www.hurontractor.com/news.asp?display=headlines&process=view&pressID=1157 (They use the Rotax 644 4-Tec engine, not the Rotax 654)
11. Bimota Supermono (1995-1996) / Supermono Biposto (1996-1997) ... See http://www.infoservizi.it/bimotaclubitalia/colother.htm ctxspy
    Also check this website: http://www.moto-one.com.au/performance/BB1supermono.html
    

• Here's a couple of links: Dauntless Motors link with F650 sidecar mounts and sidecar available: http://www.dauntlessmotors.com/Mountinghdw_files/bmw_mounts.htm. And a pic of a 1998 F650 with a Sputnik sidecar: http://sidecarmike.com/gallery/gallery.cgi?Category=9 There's some discussion on this one on an IMZ-Ural email list. North"wet" Northwet #1101
• http://www.sidecar.com/. Robert in Texas #959 -- Black '97 Classic
• No sidecar is going to be "bolt on" in the sense that you can just switch as you feel like it, like panniers. The F is as good a choice as any for a rig that will take say 4-6 hours to convert one way or the other as it will run a light chair like the dauntless on standard forks and tyres with no brake on the sidecar. Light connections can be made QD. The time consuming bit is checking the alignment and getting it right and sorting tyre pressures etc. An outfit never goes in a straight line (bike leaned out and toed in). Get these angles wrong and it'll handle like a shopping trolley with mad cow disease. You'd need to check it each time you moved the chair. Even with some sort of setting frame there is room for error. By own outfit took about 6 weeks to get perfect, starting from a set up by one of the UK's top three experts. The F as a tug has limitations. Tyre wear will be excessive as bike tyres don't like running/cornering flat on the tread. The chain is under spec'd already and will wear. The F's 48 hp is a bit low for modern traffic conditions with chair. The off road suspension, bike tyres, power and no brake on the sidecar will limit you to pretty sedate handling. IMHO, keep it light and it'll work up to a point. But, if you can get two bikes, consider something in the 750-1000cc class as a permanent tug. You'll get an airhead or Ural outfit second hand for the cost of a special conversion. If you haven't ridden an outfit before, consider an old airhead or similar to see if you like the way they ride, they are neither bikes nor cars. Find a Ural agent as they will probably give you a demo or test ride. Don't buy a Ural unless you are very confident in the importers rebuild and dealers level of support. My own Ural was junk because the UK importer leave the rebuild to the dealers discretion and the dealer wasn't a specialist in Russian bike archaeology. Take a look at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCT/ and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sidecarsuk/. My R1100R outfit is the other end of the scale to a light F based outfit, heavy, leading links, car tyres etc. There are pictures under Andy's pics on the sidecarsuk site. This'll cruse at 80-90 with three people and you can still hear the stereo, but it'd take about a week to go back to solo. It easily beat a pair of Fireblades over the Alps because it corners like a go cart (it was raining/snowing, so not a fair race I know, but I had a passenger and three weeks worth of gear, they didn't) Sidecars are brilliant fun and handle like nothing else on earth. Get a dog in the chair and you'll be beating off young women with a stick (if you like that sort of thing!). Sidecarists are an interesting bunch, if a little mad. Go for it! Andy Leeds UK #982
• Yea, Andy has it all, just forgot one thing (for non-GB riders). As sidecar outfits are usually not as common elsewhere as in GB, other road users have a tendency to beckon, honk or flash their lights. Even if you do some, seemingly, hazardous manoeuvre other motorists usually do not get angry, just baffled. If you want to get attention and have real fun, get an outfit, but keep your two wheeled one as well. It takes a lot of work to get a sidecar outfit handle properly, but it is well worth the effort. If you get one with a bit of power, you can outrun most other vehicles safely (on twisties and/ or with bad road conditions). If you get an old, low powered one, I do not think anyone will get annoyed if you go a bit slow. Most people just smile and wonder, when they see a sidecar! My tuned up 1983 Guzzi Le Mans is not exactly new or super powered, but after work today I safely overhauled all the other traffic. We had ice, snow and sleet today and I just had a lot of fun. Haakon#626 (Norway, F650GS)
• In general, I agree with the statements made. Most sidecar rigs (my old one included) would take more time than it's worth to remove it (OTOH, my friend's /2 conversion rig can be removed in about 10 minutes). The more you specialize the bike to optimize the rig's handling (flat profile tires, leading link forks, sidecar brakes, battery/ballast in the chair) the more difficult removal becomes and the worse the bike handles solo. And MOST sidecars are a LOT more work to ride...a crowned road or crosswind and you'll be doing a pull-up with one arm and a push-up with the other...try that for several hours. And spoke wheels are not the best choice for sidecars, as the lateral forces (especially "flying the chair", which you will eventually do intentionally or not) throw them out of alignment/break spokes. Check out the United Sidecar Association. Marty #436-Chicago-97 F650F
• Check out www.sidestrider.com. They're out of California and have some of the neatest sidecars you can imagine. Some really retro hacks, including many made by Watsonian, the oldest manufacturer still around. Well worth a peek. They also used to publish a sidecar magazine, but not sure if it's still extant. I've had communication with the owner, Doug Bingham, and he's a nice guy with enormous enthusiasm for sidecars. Ian C.
• This is an outfit I built after seeing pictures of your Honda/Sputnik. It convinced me that the Sputnik sidecar was what I wanted. It's a 1998 BMW F650/Sputnik. I run a 145 car radial on a Volkswagen rear wheel and there is a 4000 lb rated electric winch set between the bike and sidecar. During the Canadian winters we use studded tires on the front and back. Norm Pottruff.
• http://www.pashnit.com/bikes/sidecar.htm

German Police Okay, so as not to post something 'old' I hope that this is new. I have a hankering for Police motorcycles because as a little kid this was what attracted me to motorcycles (especially BMWs). Some of you may have seen the BMW police bikes that I shot at the Barcelona motorcycle show. As I'm putting together a '02 R1150RT-P now in official German autopolizei trim I was looking on the web for new pics. I was pleasantly surprised to find the following pics of the F650GS being used as a police bike. Enjoy.

Danish Army Davidhpark, #711 http://www.armyvehicles.dk/bmwf650.htm

San Rafael Police The head mechanic, Miguel, is BMW trained and services the F650GS police bikes in town. From http://www.ultimatejourney.com/chap94.html

Royal Barbados Police Hi, I received a lot of information from your site which I found very useful in servicing The Police Fleet of vehicles in Barbados. Shawn Coombes, The Royal Barbados Police Force.

Spanish Police I know they are used in parts of Spain, also in London, UK, if you have any contacts there who might be able to advise on their long-term usefulness. These two images are of Spanish Cops' F650GS bikes. Trevor, #999

Gahanna Police Well, here is my entry this week (maybe I will have another picture to share if the fuzz between here and Vermont tag me Confused) As I am searching for the rubber/brass coupling between the crankcase and air box I headed out to BMW of Columbus who will VOR parts for free, but are on the complete other side of town. Saw one of these in the garage and asked the parts guy who owns it. Guess the Gahanna Police in Columbus are the only department in the state/region that has F650's as police bikes. I headed out to the station yesterday and met up with the motor officer and snapped this picture. matttys

Swiss Army How many can you count? Winter, #1935

French? Police

• I am the proud owner of a 02 Dakar F650. Great bike with great ride. Sits real high which is great for me as I'm 6'4. Handles the twisties with style but does seem high in the turns as I sometimes feel my head will hit the side walls in a canyon. Large amount of travel in the shocks. Makes it nice for rough road conditions pot holes etc. I can run this bike down the freeway at 80mph in comfort and then exit and travel a trail into the back country. The machine feels like it will do it all and I'm confident that if one was to have just one bike this would fit the bill fine. The more I ride this machine the more I like it. The seat is the only problem for me. It forces your forward into the bars. My ass starts to hurt even on the shortest rides. I'm looking into a Sargent seat. For a dual sport bike this is the perfect pick. If I was to ride 99% hi-way I would probably pick the bigger Beemer models. Biggums
• I agree with everything Biggums said, except for hitting my head on the canyon walls; haven't tried that yet. Of course, I'm 6'1'', not 6'4. But in general, I can't imagine a better bike for the pavement/dirt combo kind of riding. As for the seat, the foam up front is thick and soft, so you tend to tip forward, especially while going downhill. Part of the problem is the plastic seat bed itself, which is sloped forward, like the deep drop-off in a swimming pool. I peeled the seat apart and added about 1 inch of high density foam up front (see Seat FAQ). This took about 1-2 hours, and totally fixed the problem. Actually, I did this operation twice, adding 1/2 inch each time. Took less than an hour the second time.
• Don is on a GS and I'm on a Dakar. Each of us would argue that our bikes are perfect for our needs but at 6'2, the Dakar does fit me better than a normal GS. When I went to bed last night, I did notice my left shoulder and both elbows were starting to hurt. I have arthritis or tendonitis in both elbows. I would probably have an easier time on a much lighter bike towed up to the turnoff but that seems like such a waste. The Dakar is perfect for runs of pavement followed by rides offroad. I'm not sure I've come close to answering your question re GS v. Dakar but at least for me, the extra height of the Dakar was one factor in the purchase. Gerry #951
• I also am 5'8 and enjoy the extra height. You only need one foot on the ground when you stop. It always seems the bike is small when you get both feet flat on the ground. KiwiDakar.
• Note the Dakar has a 2.15 inch wheel rim whereas the GS's is a 2.5 inch rim, thus the GS Tyre is not only smaller it is wider, more like a Supermono.

Kristian#562 HK ex'96F, '00 GS

I know Art has both Bikes, and I now have had the GS for 18 months after having had the Classic for a number of Years. While there are a lot of similarities, here are some personal observations on differences. Some people are going to dispute some of these, but like I said, personal observations. And I did a lot of work on my Classic, by myself :-)

• The FI is now almost OK, but IMHO it's still not perfect, but is well documented. Fixes include unplug the O2 sensor, add Fuel Nanny.
• The Oil Change is easier on the Classic. On the GS you have to remove the Faux Tank Panels to access the Oil Tank.
• The Valve Check is MUCH easier on the Classic. Tank off and you're at the Valve Cover. See the GS Valve Check FAQ for the umpteen million bits you have to take off just to get to the Valve Cover.
• Replacing the Shims on the GS I believe entails taking off the Cam Carrier, because you can't get the front Cam Chain Rail Guide past the Radiator to give you enough Chain Slack to get at the LHS Shims with the Carrier in. Still experimenting.
• The GS LHS Indicator Switch is farther away from your thumb and you can't just move the lever mount along, because the Switch is Integral with it.
• The GS Mirrors have been known to move (fold back) like crazy.

• The early GS has had quite a few reports of Radiator Leaks. Mine went at 6500kms.
• The GS still hasn't made a better Water Pump. Mine went at 2400 km's. Still as easy to fix though.
• The GS Motronic System is connected to the ABS/Speedo Sensor at the rear wheel. If the sensor goes you not only lose your Speedo, your bike does a fair impression of galloping girty. Mine went at 7000kms.
• I personally think the Stock Seat on the Classic was more comfortable than the GS one is.
• The Fuel Filter/Regulator has to be replaced as one integral unit.
• The GS doesn't suffer from Carb Wear, Pukin petrol like the Classic.
• The balance of the GS is nice, due I think to tank under seat, however in Traffic/at Low Speeds I get the feeling the Classic was better, probably due to more weight over the front.
• The GS drives better at low Speeds, even with the 16T Front Sprocket. I got the same low speed driveability on the Classic with a 15T front (or larger rear).
• The GS has better bearings and I would say is better put together. SKF at least on the wheel bearings, which I replaced as some idiot in the factory left out a Circlip between the (NOW 2 bearings vs. Classic's 1) in the Sprocket Carrier. See the FAQ.
• The GS has a Cheesy front Fairing. See the Well nuts FAQ.
• The GS has one easy-to-access large Exhaust if your Exhaust gaskets ever blow. he nuts don't look as Cheesy as the Classics do.
• The GS has a separate Oil Tank, so doesn't heat up the Steering head Bearing Grease like the Classics does.
• The DAKAR version of the GS has two Chain Rollers, one of which is the princely sum of US$70. The GS has just one, and upper roller. See the FAQ.
• The Classic has a Low Fender Supplied. The GS Sprays water all over you and needs an aftermarket one, desperately.
• You have to remove three bits of fairing to access the GS Battery, which is right above the Engine and gets hot.
• Your legs & Crotch get pretty hot beside the Faux Tank on the GS. The Classics big petrol Reservoir keeps you nice and cool. Nice in a cold climate. Bloody Awful in a hot one.
• My GS Vibrates more than the Classic did. Maybe it's still new-ish, but I've tightened the Frame bolts and while it's better you FEEL it more, partly IMHO due to the lack of the Rubber Grommets the handlebars fit through on the Classic. The GS doesn't have these it's a direct connection to the Triple Tree. I noticed this when I put on Bar Risers.
• There is much less under-seat room on the GS than you have on the Classic. The Rear compartment is pretty small. Considering a Staintune Single Exhaust so I can Fashion a Faux Pipe Storage Tube on the RHS.
• The GS doesn't have an adjustable Bolt on the Centrestand like the Classic Had. I want to make the stand come forward a bit more when it's up on it, because I think it's perched a bit at a too vertical angle. No dice, no adjustment. (The Dakar doesn't even HAVE a Centrestand).
• The GS has nor grease nipples for the Centrestand.
• So far no-one has had Seat or ignition lock problems with the GS like the Classic has.
• The GS has a better alternator output.
• The GS doesn't have the Classics Buffeting problems, or at least no-where near the same extent.
• The GS Cams & Head are from BMW, so will probably not pit so easily (Cams), Valves recede (Head).
• If I was going from HK to the UK via China & Russia, I'd take the Classic. It's a pity about the poor quality of a lot of Parts on the Classic, bearings etc, but like Flash says, I can fix the Carbs. Sure I could carry a spare injector, but a Spare Motronic, Speedo Sensor Cable, Fuel Filter/regulator, Fuel Pump...?? Naaah.
• The Brake Light Switch is better on the GS than the Classic. No Druckstuck.
• The GS has just one Coil and one Spark Plug. So far, don't know if that's good or bad. Just different.
• The GS Oil Filter is the same as the Classics.
• The Classic had an adjustable Centrestand. On the GS, you have to grind the lugs. My Centrestand was so upright the bike rolled off it at a Gas Station Twice. After Grinding it sits a little further back, so the bike goes up and over it and stays there.
• The GS is hot in the crotch Area. There's no Substitute for that large cool Tank of Gas between your lugs to deflect the heat.

Don't get me wrong, the GS is a fine bike, it's a good engine and a well balanced ride and it looks well sexy. It's still easy to work on by yourself, although not AS easy. I'll add to the list as times goes on.

Harl #380:

• Had both. In my experience, the carbed bike ran better above 5000 rpm, the FI bike below 3000 rpm. FI got better mileage. Surged like mad, even on deceleration. It was one of the first US bikes and it was before BMW would admit that surging was an issue and blamed the rider for bad riding technique.

Mike #639:

• F650GS Pros: ABS (non-Dakar), greater output alternator, more robust counter balance design, in-house built cams, fuel injection, processor controlled engine management system, new (stiffer) frame design. Smoother power delivery between 2K-3K RPM. Dakar version available with 21in front tire/wheel and more suspension travel. Cons: Some (many, most?) bikes exhibit intermittent stalling and mis-firing at midrange RPM's (BMW may have a fix and post 01/01 built bikes are supposed to be fixed at the factory). If the EMS or fuel pump fails (may be unlikely) and you don't have a spare with you you're probably S.O.L. Fewer aftermarket accessories available so far.
• F650 Funduro Pros: Been around long enough to work out most glitches. With sufficient know-how (available on this board) easier to adjust or make changes to fuel delivery system (twin carburettors), or repair in the middle of nowhere. Large, loyal following on this board. More aftermarket accessories. Cons: Some bikes exhibit intermittent poor running unless changes made to emissions equipment/plumbing (knowledge available on this board). Lumpy, jerky power delivery below 3K rpm on some (many, most?) bikes.

Andy #982:

• The F650 build quality is better than other modern BMW's where it counts (engine etc.). Two F's have never left me stranded while the R1100 has a habit of suffering minor electrical problems. My new R1100R also got through 3 Japanese made shock absorbers due to rust in the warranty period. Rewiring a new bike that cost GBP10K is not my idea of quality, nor would be paying GBP500 a shot for a shocker. I don't really care about the cosmetics if the bike performs well, bikes are for riding not looking at.
• Aprilia also has expanded massively in recent years while BMW has not grown faster than the general market. Aprilia quality cannot be that bad. Rotax make more engines than BMW do and for tougher jobs. A fire pump engine runs at full power every time it is used, a 3 series car engine is lucky if it gets to full operating temperature on a 3 mile trip to the shops. Aprilia and Rotax are set to stay in the bike market, BMW are a car manufacturer. The F is fortunate not to be a real BMW. Running costs are lower because there are three or more sources for many bits that are not BMW. Also, it does not attract as much of the badge premium as the R or K. You get better than current BMW engineering, a BMW badge and near Japanese prices. A good buy if the price is right. Buying new is the problem as you have to pay BMW prices and suffer the depreciation. Look at the individual bike and the price, not out of date company reputations. I bought the last of the old F's to get the proven technology.
• All new BMW's take at least two years to get right. The FI models are only on loan from BMW, they all have to go back to the dealer at least once a year to get the computers cleared out. On the other hand in the real world dealers aren't that much trouble to get to so you pay your money and take your choice. The other big problem I had with the FI models is the tank location. This prevents you expanding the fuel capacity for under GBP800. The Funduro tank is half this price. BMW Luggage isn't worth the reclaimed milk cartons its made out of IMHO.
• If I wreck the F tonight I'd buy another carbed model or go the Jap bike route. Service intervals are 6000 miles. Nothing major tends to go wrong until 30000 plus if the bike is not abused. Water pumps are said to be a weak point but are not major items to fix if you have a little skill and a place to work. Apart from that its wear and tear items like clutches that will give hassle if you are going to get any. When buying listen to the engine look for signs of wear etc.
• BTW all F650's rattle below 1500 rpm or so due to the auto de-compressor. The only changes between 94 and 99 were cosmetic such as the change faired to un-faired indicators, screen heights and the replacement of the temp gauge with a clock. Mileage and service history are more important that year IMHO. ST models are worth less in Europe and are not as accomplished off road, but are equal on the black stuff.
• Personal experience says yes the carbed bikes are better, or mine is at least. I bought mine in July '99 and have never looked back. 16500 miles, no real trouble, good for at least another 3 years. I've done UK to Norway and UK to Southern France without any worries. My alternative would have been an early FI model that would have cost me GBP1000 more, had less toys and maybe surged and or stalled, resulting in arguments with BMWUK and all the minions of the underworld. Your problem now is that if you buy a '99 you maybe have another years abuse by previous owners to deal with, but you know the design was sound. You'll save $x on the purchase but maybe have to spend $y keeping it alive. You'll also have older styling and slightly less power. Apples and oranges really. I'm keeping the '99.
• I must admit the GS is growing on me. I wrote an article about the F back in January (having opened my mouth in a debate on the BMW club website about the number of what I did on my holiday type articles in the club mag I had to put my pen where my mouth was). In the article, having expounded the virtues of the carbed F in particular and any F in general, I concluded that the GS wasn't quite ready for serious touring use due to the FI problems and cost of fitting more fuel capacity. The article was published in May, so I re-read it. Thinking about it now, I would consider a GS if I wreck the classic. Funny how a bit of time makes the problems look less of a barrier to a new bike.

Leo #699 Utica, NY - 2000F:

The carb models, 2000 and older, run consistently fine.

Mark #403:

• Carb'ed bikes tend to require carb rebuild around 20-25K miles. I'm at 22K miles, and I just lost about 10 mpg in the last few months. I'm ASSUMING it's carb-related, but haven't gone through it yet.

Richard #230:

• I have had motorcycles run for over 80,000 miles without needing a carb re-build. However, I suppose that the F650 vibration is causing needle jet wear. My mileage has slipped about 5% over the past 28,000 miles, but that is not too significant. I still get over 50 mpg average gas mileage and a pint per 1000 miles oil mileage.

Fede:

• Some months ago a friend of mine was searching a new bike, and step by step was convinced by me to buy the new F650GS, after seeing my bike once time and another...Some numbers...
  Two bikes. Tank full for both bikes. Last Saturday we went through Sierra de Cazorla. The trip was very wonderful. We run for about 385 Km. during more than 6 hours. The trip included about 145 Km in autovia or autobahn or autostrada, running 110-120 Km/h, and about 42 Km. on a off road trail. And Going back home we made a stop to put some gas. Data:
• My friend's bike: new 2002 F650GS, with about 1100 Km before the trip. Gas spent: 6.0 euros, 7,38 liters, 3,46 l/100 Km, 28.88 Km/l.
• My bike: 1994 F650, with about 70.500 Km. before the trip. Gas spent: 9.0 euros, 11.09 liters, 5,20 l/100 Km, 19,22 Km/l. For both, exactly running the same distance: 213.2 Km. My friend is starting to convincing to me, Hmmm...

• I bought an R1150R in January and loved it. Until I bought a Dakar in February. Then the 50R sat while the odo on the Dakar spun. Yesterday I sold the 50R, and ordered up more goodies for the Dakar. The 50R is a fine bike. But when I had an opportunity to ride and had to choose which bike, the Dakar almost always won. The Dakar was more versatile (gravel, etc.) more comfortable, and easier to flick around town, or through twisties. I even preferred the Dakar on the freeway for its better seat and easier ergos. DakotaDakar#1198

• I have a 1997 Funduro and a new R1150R. The Funduro is a better commute bike because it is lighter, thinner (can split lanes easier) and most importantly, has a better and smoother clutch take up from a stop. It also gets better mileage. The R-bike would only be better if your commute had a lot of freeway miles each day, or you carried a passenger. Richard #230, Pacifica, CA

• For those of you looking to move up to a larger standard/GS-type bike, MCN just published their comparison between the V-Strom, BMW R1150 Adventure, Triumph Tiger and Aprilia Capo Norde. While I haven't actually seen the article (the heat slows up the pony express this time of the year), word is that they liked the V-Strom the best. Quoting from another source:
  "By virtue of combining excellent performance and extraordinary value, the V-Strom narrowly wins this contest."  R1150 Adventure 2nd, Tiger 3rd and Capo Norde 4th. They also supposedly said, "The V-Strom was the bike we preferred to ride fast and furious, making it the hooligan of the four." And "Even on smooth dirt roads, it feels like an oversized motocross bike instead of a ponderous beast of burden like the others." Gerry #951 (Phoenix AZ)

• I did (consider it) briefly, but when I realized that for double my money I'd be getting a bike that was heavier, slower and had a less powerful generator, I quickly came to my senses and opted for the 1100.  The deal I may get is trading my 1100 for a 2001 low mileage 650 with some nice options including side cases, Dakar screen, ABS and an alarm. And I'd get a couple grand cash on top of that. But maybe I'm better off keeping the 1100 and buying some platform shoes. Twinrider on Advrider.

• I currently own a R1150GS and it's great but the bike is mostly used for commuting and the occasional rally and breakfast ride. I previously investigated replacing the 1150 with a F650GS because it's lighter, more economical and other practical considerations. At the time I dismissed this on the basis that the F650GS is less suited to travelling long distances. Any thoughts. PS. I usually ride one-up as my wife has her own bike, and newly acquired F650GS. Max

• I would select the F650GS over the R1150GS for going anyplace, anything. If I wanted a long distance machine I would suggest the K12LT or R1150RT. The F650GS has the same if not more luggage (BMW) capacity but those other bikes offer more wind protection. The F650GS is the first choice as a commuter in city traffic because it is so light and easy to handle. You also get 50% better gas mileage (60 v 40) in city riding. Whatever puts a smile on your face on the way to work is what is best.  The R1150GS is too big, heavy and only lets you accelerate a little faster than the more manageable F650GS. One more thing... BMW does give you a little more for those extra $7,000 on the R1150GS, the question is it needed or worth it? Dave # 717

• 3000 mile trips with camping gear are no trouble, you just can't do a pillion and a stack of luggage and 100 mph, you have to pick one or two out of the three. We'd all like an F650 that'll cruise at 120 with a pillion and luggage, but that's having your cake and eating it. Still, you'll finds its cheaper to run if you do the miles, a lot easier as the road space gets less (back roads or city) and you'll get fewer tickets. You'll also find you can do a lot more work at home if you like. I like the 1150's but the the overall balance cost vs. performance is better on the 650. The F has all the real world performance I need, the speed limit is 70 after all. Andy Leeds UK #982

• I have owned both, currently have the F650. I think it's fine as a utility bike, great in tight corners, entertaining in town, warms up quickly. The big GS never warms up on short commutes, less than 10 miles. However, for any serious ground covering and if you are an aggressive rider on fast roads, the GS is unmatched. Actually like the R1100S, at high revs the F650 feel like you are thrashing it a bit. The big GS never feels that way. It's a false comparison, really, because they have pretty distinctly different uses. The big GS is fantastic riding fast with two up. Unbelievable. Johnny #862

• I was in the same dilemma two years ago. The Dakar won out. I had a wonderful time with the Dakar for two years. I found out the bike was a great long distance traveller if you are traveling alone. But living in the north with all the wet weather we get, found that you are lubing the chain way to often, especially when doing long distance traveling. I also found the wind protection from the windshield very poor with the Dakar shield. I'm sure with a few modifications these small problems could be corrected. Otherwise it was a great bike. As a new R1150gs adv owner I am finding the Adv will do everything the Dakar will do but in more comfort. It is a way better bike two-up. As far as off-road will do almost go everywhere the Dakar will venture. But slower. Wind protection is better, highway speed is a breeze with the 6 speed. The only problem is keeping it at the posted speed. To conclude. If you are looking for a smaller bike the 650 is a great bike, but if you can keep the big GS, it's never a problem having two bikes or more. Rick #815 BC Can

• I have one of each and would hate to make a choice. TomO-AR 650GS;1150GS Adventure

• Both bikes are awesome and legendary machines. The choice will be tough, even though they both have very distinct uses. I currently own the F 650 (Classic), and have been keeping an eye on the R 1150 GS for a while. But if I had to be purely practical, and sensible, I'd keep my F. The advantages of the F 650 (GS or not) is, as you pointed out, economical running, fewer maintenance issues, much more fun in the bush, easier in heavy traffic etc, etc. The R 1150 GS, on the other hand, will sit at a good clip all day, and the engine keeps your toes warm! With your wife riding the F 650 GS, I'd say the advantages of the 1150 are largely not relevant, as she won't be able to keep up with you anyway. I do some two-up touring with my F, and find the bike eating up anything I throw at it, including some nasty dirt track work (yes, panniers et al!) The F 650 will spend the day at 140 km/h (plus pillion, panniers and top case loaded to the brim) without complaining. The big old GS will be a handful on rocky and sandy terrain. As far as comfort goes, by butt goes numb after 8 hours on ANYTHING other than a Goldwing or the LT. Larger windscreen are available, and they do make a substantial difference, as do the Touratech style (Acerbis) hand guards, as they deflect some of the wind off your shoulders. The F 650s sell incredibly well in this country - they're good, reliable bikes. If I could afford two bikes, I'd have the F 650 GS Dakar, and an R 1150 RT for the distant stuff. Ask your dealer to let you spend a day (or a weekend) with the F. You may just buy it. Bernard Cape Town, SA.

• I have looked at the Tiger, V-Strom, Adventure, very close and as most of you know I own the Dakar. I would not trade the Dakar for the Tiger or the V-storm. I find the V-storm NOT in any way an off-road bike but a street bike dressed up to look like a GS. I have driven a friends GS and love it. The biggest + was no lubing of chain on our travels, lack of fatigue on long distance travel. Handing was par to the Dakar and as far as off-road, I was amazed were he could go with the GS. These machines have reported to get amazing mileage on the motor before any major work 100.000mile + Its only two weeks till I make the trek to pick up my new adventure. The dealer phoned me yesterday to say they just received the adv bags{ very happy}. The first ones they have ever seen. Seems like BMW just got there stuff together and the dealers are getting them now. Regards. Rick Bizarro

• I must admit I'm drawn to the bigger, badder appearance, but quickly accept three things: 1) can't afford it, 2) wouldn't want to tip it on a trail, and 3) don't need it 'cause I have a Dakar.

• 1150GS or Dakar ? Both will work. Dakar if you want lighter and easier to handle (parking, etc.) 1150GS if you will do much two up or more highway runs, especially at higher speeds. Both are great choices. TomO #654 Arkansas '02GS

• Dakar is better in SAND since its lighter-1150 has more oomph at high speeds. Rotax843

• I had a brain fart and sold my beloved 650 to a good friend----and moved over (not up or down) to a 1150GS. But wish there was this same board and format on other bike message boards. You guys are so lucky !!! And the nice people too !!! So I am still returning here enjoying the nice conversation--keep it up !!!. Mark Sampson #217 "Big Dog"

• I just sold my '95 R1100GS(6 years) in favor of the F650! I had both together for about two years, but the 650 turned out to be more fun for me and the GS1100 was getting high miles at 90000. I'm 6'1" and a proper fitting seat makes a huge difference. I'm outfitting the 650 for the long haul, as my GS1100 was. Almost there with accessories on the 650. I've been on road trips, up to 4000 miles on the 650 and wanting nothing, but larger fuel tank. Acerbis coming soon. My other toys are Jesse bags, Corbin seat, slightly different shield (National), BMW tankbag and tank panniers by Aerostich. This bike with the proper setup is absolutely, every bit as good as the 1100 for touring, IMO. I ride dirt a fair amount on my trips, so the 650 really excels here, over the 1100GS. Another comparison; The R1100GS vs.1150GS for off road! The 1100GS wins this battle, with its better gearing. The new GS1150 is a BMW dualsport wannabe, unlike its 1100 brother, simply because of the gearbox, IMO!!! Randy748

• Well, I have to admit that I was seduced by the 1150gs, took several extended test rides and loved it so much that I traded in my Silver 99 F650. The 1150gs suited my needs more, I do more 2 up riding and high speed superslab, I did not mind the extra weight, can't really feel it when I'm moving, but I do love the extra 6th gear and the extra cylinder sure smoothes thing out.......too bad I could not afford to keep my F650, I really miss it. Hope you guys don't mind me visiting....everyday. Mike#720

• When I bought my Funduro in 99 I looked at the Aprillia. Insurance was higher (not lumped in with the old men's bikes) and Aprillia had no dealers within 50 miles. Today, the insurance groups are the same, so if Aprillia or the owners clubs have a pet insurance company, costs will be the same. Aprillia have three dealers within 15 miles due to the explosion in scooter sales. Parts for the BM are still more readily available outside the dealers. Having bought sundry bits like an MZ battery from the Aprillia dealer I'd say service was up to Jap dealer standards rather than BMW's "stuff you you've already paid" approach. These days I'd buy on the basis of the best deal on the day. I'd buy a CapoNord way before a R1150GS. Andy Leeds UK #982

• I'm going to guess you're deciding between the F650GS and the R1150GS and that you weigh between 204-216lbs. If you're spending most of your time on graded gravel roads and other such maintained off-pavement surfaces, I would recommend either the F650GS Dakar of the R1150GS Adventure. Both come with longer travel suspensions and more dirt oriented tires than the regular F650GS and R1150GS. The R1150GS Adv. also comes with a shorter first gear than the regular R1150GS, which will make it easier to handle off-pavement. The weight difference between the two bikes is 161lbs. according to BMW. I weigh 160 lbs. and find the F650GS much more manageable off-pavement than the R1150GS. I can ride much more quickly and confidently off-pavement on the F than I can on the R. Plus, I can pick up the F650GS easily. I feel that the power difference between the two bikes is negligible off-pavement because the R simply cannot put all of its power to the ground. However, the R is a much, much better highway bike. Good luck and have fun deciding, Paul An. Paul888

• The big GS has a number nice touches that would be great to have on the 650 too. I still think anyone wanting to get off road much is better off with the compromise found in the 650 than the 1150. If you've got $16K to spend on an 1150GS and you can manage it well in the dirt and you promise not to run me over, well, good for you. FWIW, I was just joking around with the bit about the gear counter. Struck me as kind of funny at the time. BradG 1002, N, CA '01GS.

• They've got good reviews of the 1150GS adventure and the F650gs on the main site: http://www.gmconline.com. Sean #1015 Ottawa Canada

• The 1150 is a very heavy machine when you take it off-road or into tighter confines. It's forte is cruising along effortlessly on long tar/dirt roads. The F650 is far more economical compared to the 1150. I do a lot of riding two-up with mine, and my girlfriend and I often spend long days in the saddle exploring the Cape surrounds - in perfect comfort. However, the twin boxer motor and shaft-drive of the 1150 puts it in an entirely different category. It is an immensely powerful bike with an impressive top speed. So my advice would be to get the F650 if your off-road escapades will be anything more technical than a flat, wide dirt road. If your planned daily mileage is expected to be that low, then the comfort and smoothness of the 1150 will mean little. Bernard, Cape Town, South Africa

• Try both bikes and buy the one you enjoy the most or buy both. You need to demo each bike over a weekend each. The 650gs costs less to run. Most of my riding is two up and both of us enjoyed the 650gs better than the 1150gs. Make sure and get all options when you decide as well fit a top box for your partner to lean back on.  Dean Waitakere City NZ 02GSDA

• I've owned both the "big" GS and the "little" GS and I don't know that I can add anything to this discussion. It truly is a matter of taste and preferences. Both have their place. I currently ride the F650GSD because it is lighter and while I haven't done, and probably won't do much off-road riding, I have other big bikes for cross-country riding and I like the 650 for scooting around back roads. The 1150GS is also a great bike for many types of riding. I'll second the motion to test ride both and make your own decision. RAN #827

• I've owned both, the 99 1100 GS meeting an untimely end when we hit a deer on a dark Texas highway. the GS was about 100 pounds heavier than the f-650 and I had to pick them both up out of the dirt/sand many times. The 1100 certainly the advantage on the Mexican autobahns, but i like to mix in some dirt with the street miles and the 650 is just overall a better off-road machine (extensive copper canyon miles), having the weight advantage makes the smaller bike a better overall bike for my purposes. I put a larger rear sprocket on mine and it will do 95 all day with me and 40 pounds of bag. tough call if cost isn't a factor. kev.

• If you have a short inseam the ll50GS will be a problem. You can get around this by shortening the suspension. There is an article on this in the December issue of the MOA magazine, page 19. Bill No.391 Las Vegas

• R1150GS vs F650GS. Your better half will enjoy the ride a lot more with a custom seat and backrest, etc.. Good riding gear, heated clothing and many other creature comforts are available these days, so leaving the trailer behind is an option for the well equipped. Maybe you don't fully understand the purpose for longer rides without all the anchors attached! The longer boring stretches are boring in the car, too. Just better on a bike. It cost a lot of money, today to ride in comfort, cross country, but the money is well spent, IMO. The bigger GS is the real choice for two up, as the 650 is very easily overloaded with two and gear. I've also had both at the same time and recently sold the big GS, because I'm a solo rider these days. The 650 is more fun for solo and goes anywhere the big GS would go on the highway, or offroad. I've ridden the 1100GS in the hardest places imaginable and the 650, too. No comparison in dirt. Imogene Pass, Co. on a 1100GS is a feat not many ,if any have done on such a big bike. I won't do it again, either. This Colorado country is 650 heaven! The big 1100/1150 bikes are quite a hunk of machine and take a pretty good beating but you have to be strong to get one through the nasty trails. I'm seeing a lot more these days getting off road. My 8000$ 650 does not hurt me nearly as much as the bigger 20000$ bike (equipped) when they fell, or fall. I just sold my '95 R1100GS(6 years) in favor of the F650! I had both together for about two years, but the 650 turned out to be more fun for me and the GS1100 was getting high miles at 90000. I'm 6'1" and a proper fitting seat makes a huge difference. I'm outfitting the 650 for the long haul, as my GS1100 was. Almost there with accessories on the 650. I've been on road trips, up to 4000 miles on the 650 and wanting nothing, but larger fuel tank. Acerbis coming soon. My other toys are Jesse bags, Corbin seat, slightly different shield (National), BMW tankbag and tank panniers by Aerostich. This bike with the proper setup is absolutely, every bit as good as the 1100 for touring, IMO. I ride dirt a fair amount on my trips, so the 650 really excels here, over the 1100GS. Another comparison; The R1100GS vs.1150GS for off road! The 1100GS wins this battle, with its better gearing. The new GS1150 is a BMW dualsport wannabe, unlike its 1100 brother, simply because of the gearbox, IMO!!! Randy748/Calif

• I agree with Randy. I just switched from the 1150 to the 650 Dakar, because the 1150 was too fragile off-road. But I was riding pretty hard with it in the dirt too. For what you described: mostly on pavement and 2 up, if no money involved, the IMO the 1150 is BY FAR the best choice. I could swap to the 650 also, because my wife just got pregnant and so I will ride alone for a while. JL - San Francisco - 650 Dakar.

• First off, never be ashamed to trailer if you're intent is to go ridding, especially if it's across a state like Kansas!! Motorcycles are an emotional activity, get the one that gives you the best vibes, riding and standing still. Personally, I bought the FGS 'cus I was a new rider and couldn't afford the 1150 and stay married. Now I am extremely happy with the F GS. I have explored roads in Colorado that I know I would not have dared on an 1150. Every time I decide to try something different, like long distance touring the F650 is always more than capable. I'm sue you'll love ether one!! Brian#834

• If you want to wait weeks for black box bits to arrive in the boonies, get the 1150GS. If you want simple, stick with carbs and the Classic (pre-'01) F650. Flash #412

• The Quota, Tiger, R1150GS, etc are all too big. The KLR, DR, XRL, etc were all wanting in the street dept. The KTM was too harsh for the road. The original Funduro didn't appear to being up to a lot of offroad. The F650GS Dakar looks perfect. If you haven't checked out Tim Bernard's Happy trails web site, do so. He has a full complement of stuff for the F650GS, just not a lot of current photos up yet. Bert

• Changed classic for GS but ... After trying some bikes (tiger, R1150gs, Pegaso i.e.) I decided after all Change my beautiful F650 SPECIAL EDITION for a 2002 F650GS. Initially I wanted more power on my engine, and that's why I tried the king of the touring/Enduro bike R1150gs. But I realize that is to heavy for offroad/mud/dust hilly roads. You cant ride by your self, because if you drop the bike you are in a big trouble if you have to pick it up alone!! The new F650gs is a awesome machine.! I tried my friend's and with it, in the curves I could ride almost 20km/hr faster and felt safer. If you know how to ride this bike you don't need more Hp's. Yes is thru with ABS breaking system was the second biggest invention for safety after helmet. It's a new world. So me and another friend decided to change ours better looking F650 classic to F650GS. But... I noted that the two new bikes generate too much heat from all around the battery/ oil area. No light of overheating or something like that. I consult the BMW dealer and he says that is because they are new at same time we ride them as is recommended for the first 1000 and 2000 km without passing 5000 rpm. Radiator fan starts working very often When I stop and feel it in my legs too. I don't like that heat and I'm not sure if this is normal. Everybody knows how the Sales guys are. Is this heat normal? Did somebody experienced the same? I hope this will disappear soon. I still think the F650Gs that the statement of many writers and product reviews that "is the best motorcycle in the market". And yes now I started to like the offroad look of the bike. If you can do the change.. do it. Guz

• I get no respect! I live in Detroit MI. USA. I own a Dakar and a R1150GS. When I'm on the road with the Dakar the other people in traffic do not give me the same space. I get with the Boxer. And other bikers (unless their on a BMW) Don't return the customary wave or salute. Anyone else have this problem? Connor #833

• I've owned my F650 for 2 years now and despite many temptations to go bigger and better ?, I've not yet found anything that betters the F650 in all areas. My only grief and its not really mine, is comfort.................two-up its just too cramped for me and my wife. I thought about a different, better laid out seat, but as yet have found nothing suitable. R1150GS's would fit the bill, but I don't fancy forking out the extra GBP5000 it would take to get one. Then I thought about the R850GS, which I don't think is available in the USA. Used examples in the UK are way cheaper than the 1150's. Well today I drove 400miles to try and possibly buy one. I didn't buy it................it was slower than my 96 F, it vibrated way more especially right where you would cruise at 70-85mph. On the positive side it was way more comfortable............no surprises there and it turned much better than the F, very light feeling and eminently flickable. I came away just wishing I could find a way to get the same comfort for two on the F. My wife absolutely detests riding pillion on it, so unless I can find or have made a better seat, I will have to change to something bigger against my better judgement....................any suggestions ? Sawdrl (Geordie land UK)

• To add to the other answers, two up the F is stable and quick enough. You would maybe struggle to do a two week camping trip two up as the luggage capacity becomes limited. On the flip side a bike that will do the transcontinental tour at 100 mph with a pillion and a ton of luggage will be no fun off road (R1150GS). Mechanically, the F is very reliable. The engine rattle at idle is the decompressor and is not a problem if it disappears by 1500 rpm. Early FI bikes had surging and stalling, but 99% of this now seems cured. The waterpump and head stock bearings can wear faster than you'd maybe expect, but this seems to be a small proportion of failures at 20000 miles plus. Have look at the FAQ and survey questions below. I'm on my second carbed F and would consider an FI one if I had the cash to put the Touratech fuel tanks on (I don't want to loose the 400 mile range, but that's just me). I must have done 35000 miles on F's from the North tip of Norway to the south of Italy. You'll find people here who've done twice that. The F is a true all rounder. Andy Leeds UK #982ndy

• I just tried a two-up ride on my '02 F650GS. I am 170lbs and my rider was 200lbs. Not good. Handling tough at low speeds, slower acceleration, not enough room, no back rest, etc.. I think even someone 120lbs would be too much for this bike on long trips. I strongly recommend looking at the 1150GS if you want the two-up capability. It could probably haul a small army on its back. Rod

• Most of my riding is 2 up with 50% gravel. The other week the 1150gs boys asked how come we can keep up all the time with the big boy toy's even 2 up. The Dakar is so much fun in the corners and hills as well costs a lot less to buy and run. I went into the BMW dealer today to test ride a 1150GS Adventure. Well I now know again why I enjoy the Dakar so much. It is so easy and fun bike to ride. Every one should ride other bikes just to remind us that the Dakar is such a ride. All 9 months of having the Dakar I have had no problems what so ever. KiwiDakar (02)

• Hey guys, Sorry I've been away. Sold my little red F650 for a new 1150GS. I won't go into details, but they are BOTH excellent bikes and BOTH have their good and not-so-good points. Anyway, I've check to see if I still have the 'list' of F650 riders in the Austin area. It may take me a while to find it on a back-up disc but if I find it, I'll pass it along to Robert #959 via email. Scott #678 (TX '99F)

• I ran my '97 F to Alaska and back (from New Mexico) with an R100GS and an R1100GS. The only place I would have liked a bigger bike was in Idaho/Utah/NM on the way home, where we'd probably have been running ~90+ if we'd all had oilheads. Other than that, the F was able to play with the bigger bikes just fine. I wouldn't worry about it not keeping up at touring speeds. Bryan #179

• My '98 R1100GS has 65,000 miles on it. It is the best all around bike I have ever had. It sport tours, it goes two up for thousands of miles, and it ate up many crotch rockets at a CLASS school at Road Atlanta (in the fast group!). GS's rule. Alan #442 FL

• Do you ride in the dirt? Define trail riding. If you are talking MX racing forget the F get a 250. Green lanes and un-surfaced roads are quite possible on the F if you are prepared to take it steady. I don't know the Suzuki, probably a different model in Europe, but the Jap bikes like the DR650 and KLR tend to be more off road oriented. The F beats most dual purpose bikes on the black stuff. Its a lot easier to pick up than an R1100GS or a Triumph Tiger too. Anyone who started to design a true all round bike with real world performance from scratch would design an F650, that's why BMW and Aprillia came up with the same solution as did Suzuki with the SV. The Yamaha XT is of course the father of the whole lot, but is still very much a trail bike with "extended" road ability from the bigger engine. The only people who have a problem with the F are the serious R and K people who seem to need to justify how they were talked into spending mega bucks on gas guzzling 1100's that still can't outrun a CBR 600 or out tour a big scooter. That's their problem, you can spot them as they go on and on and on about shaft drives (mention R1100GS drive splines to shut them up).  Journalists never ride a bike more that half a mile if the beer tent is open, it's easier to write the articles using 1980's jargon. This has the basic formula that anything that can be ridden on a restricted license (i.e. under 33 hp) is a learner/commuter bike. Anything under 750cc is a good first bike, anything with clip on style bars is a sports bike. Anything else is a tourer, unless it has knobbly tyres, then its a dirt bike. As a result, the F gets labeled as an overweight trailie or a beginners bike. BMW should have given the CS clip on bars and an electric windscreen to confuse the hacks. MCN has the same trouble with the Aprillia RS125. They thought it was a scooter with sports bike style and reviewed it accordingly (I don't think the journo actually saw the bike). Actually its as near a 125 race replica as you can get and will outrun most 600's, so you can imagine what people who bought one based on the review thought! I wish my insurance company would base policy costs on MCN! Andy Leeds UK #982

• The 850GS is the 1100GS with a smaller engine, if I'm not mistaking. So you add all the weight of an 1100 and add 200ccm....The 1100GS is a riot to ride though. Very "light" and easy, but I found that 1.5 hours on the back of it leads to SBS (Sleeping Butt Syndrome). I recently delivered my F650 saddle to a furniture shop. (I don't know the English word for it, but they redo old sofas and stuff.) The shop I went to happens to be the shop that does ALL the police bikes in Oslo as well, so they know what they're doing. They had rolls of original BMW anti slip fabric and rebuild to your needs. They only wanted $140 for the whole job. I haven't gotten it back yet, but with 2.5 inches of added foam and also moved back almost an inch it should do the trick. I imagine there's a shop like this where you live as well and they could probably add foam 'til your wife felt comfortable (even if she'd need a latter to get up there =o)  Thomas849 (Oslo, Nor)

• Good luck and great rides ahead, Barry. Sorry to poop on your happy moment, but you'd have to give me one of the new oilheads. I'm certainly never buying another! I've got 90000 miles experience on the GS1100 and loved everything BUT the motor's ability to run at 100% all the time. The throttle bodies were the biggest problem, along with the motronic. The bikes are the best looking around, but I'm soured on the engines operational systems! BMW stood behind the bike and tried everything to get mine right, but never did. They should have given me a new one. I really loved the R1100GS for 90000 miles, but finally gave up on the beast. The new models are NO different in engine! I'm an old airhead guy from way back and now doing the R100 thing again and way toooo much happier. I really love my 650, too. Hope your 1150 gets through its little baby steps and turns out fine. Randy748/Calif.

• Sorry I've been away. Sold my little red F650 for a new 1150GS. I won't go into details, but they are BOTH excellent bikes and BOTH have their good and not-so-good points. Anyway, I've check to see if I still have the 'list' of F650 riders in the Austin area. It may take me a while to find it on a back-up disc but if I find it, I'll pass it along to Robert #959 via email. Scott #678 (TX '99F).

• 1150 too big a jump? Having a hard time choosing a bike - I currently ride a KTM 620 & am wondering if the jump to a r1150gs adventure would be too much of a shock? I'm debating between a f650gs or GSD or the 1150 adventure. Would be used mostly for city/freeway commuting (southern CA - LOTS of traffic) - and the occasional long road/offroad trip. Freelance photography is part of what I do, so I'd want to outfit it with boxes, fender box, etc... to carry gear. I like the idea of the 1150, but having never been on one, I can't say I like it with any certainty. Inte.

• My buddy just bought the 1150 and the biggest difference is the size- I mean the hulking mass of metal that is the 1150GS dwarfs my 650GS. Other differences I've noticed:
  -I push my bike up the inclined driveway and he turns the engine on to do it
  -theres about 20 MPH top speed difference- both go over 100
  -the 1150 DEFINITELY has better mounting points for lights
  -The 650 seems skinnier than it's bigger brother- better for splitting
  -Lots of people tour on the big one but I just did 1000+ miles in 16 hours on the 650 with no trouble.
  -You can get bags for both- I rode around half the day with 2 tires strapped to mine and I have no luggage or racks. Short of serious lumber, everything I buy at the hardware store gets home on 2 wheels. For that matter, everything else I buy does too.
  -More distance per tank with the twin, better mileage with the thumper.
  -Easier maintenance on the thumper- you have to remove the tank to get to the battery on the 1150.
  
  Ultimately, you get what you feel like getting. It's a big bike but it's manageable and very capable of everything you listed. It's also twice the price of the 650. What's wrong with the KTM? I saw the prettiest '89 Transalp today and would have traded my 650 for it if the owner weren't so smart... Ride what you want and what feels good. You can get used to anything if you're a good rider. chppdlvvr, 2001 F650GS

• You didn't mention how tall you are, but for the 1150 adventurer only the tall need apply. It's a long way up to that seat. Take each bike out for a demo ride, should give you a better idea which one will be best for you. Tom
  Runaway #1259 (CO)

• Can't speak of other dealerships/brands, but as far as test rides and BMW dealerships go...I haven't been to one yet that doesn't like it. So far every one has just about begged me to take bikes out for rides. That includes before I bought my bike, and AFTER. Every time I go to my dealership they offer me to go take a bike out for a spin, even though they know that at this point I'm absolutely not in the market for another bike and won't be for years to come. Maybe it has to do with all the folks at my dealership being bike fanatics themselves? For someone my size (5'7") I think the F650GS is about as perfect a bike as I could wish for when it comes to fit and ergonomics. I've tried the 1150GS, and absolutely don't like the seating position, I feel much more cramped in the legs while it's almost a reach for me to comfortably get to the handlebars. If you're comfortable with the big GS, great. Personally I think especially for city riding the F650 exceeds the 1150. It's nimble and quick and easy to manoeuvre. If you intend on riding a lot of two-up, maybe the 1150 has more advantages. As far as luggage goes, you have a lots of options on the 650. I'm excited to see what the Pilot luggage looks like that MicaTech is introducing in the next couple of weeks. Otherwise Jesse's or Happy Trails will do just fine! Natalie, '03 black F650GSA

• Depends on lotsa things. Like any big bike......, it's fine once you're doing over 3 mph. It's the starts and stops and more so the manoeuvres necessary with feet on the ground and how well a rider can handle them that should be the deciding factor. If you can move it around easily, when it's not running, it should be okay. Many here have expressed interest in the 1150 over the last two years and have, in fact, gone on to get one. It is, like most things, your personal preference. You might find them on www.advrider.com. Personally......., I don't like two front fenders. Art 884

• Inte, my experience is the same as Natalie's. I am usually offered a ride on a bike if I am just looking at it. Maybe it helps if they have seen you in before? I have been under the impression that BMW dealers encourage test rides. Many years ago I went into the local Honda/BMW/Ducati dealer for something for my Honda V65 Sabre one Sat. The service manager asked me if I would help him out. Thinking he needed help moving something i said sure. He pointed to two of the used Beemers sitting there and asked if I would ride each bike 25-30 miles to charge up the battery's. He didn't need to ask twice. Needless to say I discovered Beemers and have ridden them ever since. Tom McCallum

• O.K. Everybody, I've got to come out of the closet and break the news. Three w/e's ago, I traded my beloved F650GS Dakar in on a black & yellow 03 1150GS Adventure. After careful thought and consideration, I was itching for something new and after a couple of test rides, I traded the Dakar in on the BIG GS. I must say that I did have to order the BMW lower seat because I stand only 5ft. 8in.. There are pro's and con's for both bikes and there are trade offs. Before I took possession of the bike, I replaced the tires with Michelin T 66's and also did not purchase the BMW fog lamps. Instead I contacted Touratech and ordered a set of PIAA's and light bar for it (much better lights and cheaper too). The Adventure is a monster of a bike but don't let it's size fool you. While riding, it is very nimble and when I hit the throttle, it moves on like a spotted ape! Yesterday, I took it on a substandard dirt and gravel road and did not notice any bad handling characteristics. Sure, if I drop it, it is going to be heavy to pick up but I was just ready for a change. I look at the Chaingang Forums almost daily, and although I remain mostly silent, this is still and will be my favorite motorcycling organization. 97 Harley Davidson Roadking, 03 1150GS Adventure. Beau A. #645

• Inte, I did go the other way. I had a hang-up imagining a smaller bike as a do all mount. After I bought a F for my wife and compared it to my spare KLR, I knew the F650 Dakar could be my main bike. I had an R1100GS and a Guzzi Quota first . I have a long inseam and the GS with the seat jacked up was very tall to the ground, but still not very tall between seat and pegs. I was tippy toes on the GS and I have a 35" inseam. The Dakar with the Touratech footpegs system is more comfortable. It is more "flickable" and I have much more confidence on the dirt and gravel roads of Nevada where I live. FWIW... :-) bwfox Chaingang Member #1131 02 F650GS, (Wife's) 03 F650 Dakar

• I two have traded my Dakar in for a 02 Adv in August of last year. I loved my Dakar and toiled with the idea of a bigger, heavier bike. I put 19000km on the Dakar in a year and a half found it to be all I needed. Then I rode a r1100gs. Even though it was an older GS I was sold. More power, more room, the ability to go two-up for miles. I'm 6.2 and the Dakar was cramped, I found when traveling. The stalling and surging issue and a few other details really got under my skin for the first day. To make it short, I traded and now 5000Km in 1.5 months I will never go back. I must agree with #645, it is a BIG bike. But when you put your feet on those pegs it is a awesome machine. As far as dirt tracking goes, the knobby tires sure make a difference. I can go anywhere I dare to go with the Dakar. Tire wear is an issue, at 5000km I say it is almost time for a new rear tire. But the price of a replacement is not too bad. The fuel range at 30L is great roughly 450km, not broken in yet might get better. I will be working on some kind of a review and my thoughts in the future and might get it put in the Sprocket. Any questions please e-mail me. Rick.
  #645

• I'm 5'10" with a 29" inseam. I traded in the 650GSA for a 1150 GS Sport (non-ABS) a week ago. There is enough sag to the suspension that with my vibram-soled boots that I can get a good plant on both sides with my 29" inseam. A couple of the Seattle area dealers encourage rides -- longer the better as there seems to be a direct correlation to the number of demo riders that come back to start dealing. Loved the 650 but had a R100 boxer before and decided to go for the larger bike. North"wet".

• A lot depends on what your definition of "city" traffic is & how fast you plan to be riding. I've been to 3 BMW dealers, asked for-and received-test rides at 2. You can probably carry more with the 1150GS, but they get really wide once you load up with side boxes. The 650GS has an available sidecase that you can expand to a wider width. Have you looked at the other 1150 models? The R1150R goes for little more than the 650GS. 2001 F650GSA Chicago, IL. Logan's Ride

• I owned a 1150GS for over a year and found it very capable on paved roads but basically pretty boring. Another thing is that the 1150GS is REALLY big and heavy. I dropped it in the driveway once and could not pick it up by myself and I'm a big guy. I had to get my wife and a neighbor to help. It's something to consider if you are planning to do any solo touring off road. In contrast, I dropped my KLR650 (same size as the Dakar) in deep sand last week and picked it up easily. My $0.02 Lynn

• I've got a '97 F, not a GS. I haven't ridden the GS. But I've put a lot of miles on the older F, and had a '94 K75S for 25k miles. So I'll start. The F is much better on a dirt road. It's lighter, it's quicker to throw around when it gets real twisty. A K75S, with those short little bars and bouncing fairing, was a real PITA on a dirt road. The K is more stable at speed. It's faster, it's more powerful. The motor, well, you have one. It's amazingly smooth. The F wins around town and as a grocery getter, for sure. The F motor isn't really an issue. It's not as smooth as the K, but it's never been a problem for me. It's surprisingly smooth for a single, and the vibrations that do come through aren't annoying. The K is better 2-up. The F isn't very roomy 2-up, and I get the feeling that the weight bias ends up with not enough weight on the front wheel. The F will do 2-up, but that's not it's strong point. It will work better at 2-up if the rider is not too tall. Suspension and brakes are comparable, i.e., not up to the standards of an oilhead. My K was cheaper to maintain - oil, gas, tires. Np chains and sprockets. The stock K seat was OK. The stock F seat just plain sucked. Bryan #179 (NM)

• I know it's the wrong forum but some of you probably have 1100RTs so... what do you think of them as a companion bike to the GS? I'm thinking the GS is the adventure tour/zipping around town/commuting to work general purpose bike and the RT would be for long distance touring and/or the "date" bike better suited for taking a newbie rider two-up. Everyone happy with their RTs? Think I should wait and for similar money get the Yamaha FJR1300? Kelly #1005

• I recently purchased a used 1100RS for longer distance rides and I really like the brakes, the way it holds a line thru a corner and the weather protection. the weight of a RS is in the 500plus category whereas the RT is over 600lbs. I recently did a 400 mile day and felt less fatigue than if I drove the car. On my F I could only do 200-300 miles. Richard 424, Oregon

• I would give a careful consideration to the ST1100/1300 over the RT for the following reasons:
  1) Less money
  2) Less trouble (compare chat rooms)
  3) Larger gas tank in the St
  4) Lower center of gravity in the ST (tank under seat like the GS)
  5) Long range tires available (excedra)
  Mine has 86k on it with no problems other than a faulty sidestand switch. It looks and runs like new (1992 model)
  Its been around the country three times and never let me down. paul

• I hear that the new R1150RT and RS bikes can have a surging problem that rivals that of the F650GS at its worse. Want to tour the country? You're on the right track with the RT. Look here for some links and many comments. http://jeff.dean.home.att.net/index.html. RDW #1134, Vancouver BC

• I have a 99 R11RT and use it for 2 up or heavy load touring. It handles like a canyon cutter and reliable as the day. For an entry level bike I would not recommend it over the F650GS. The R11RT is a wonderful touring bike for highway use only. I have a 650 GS for those off road jaunts to great fishing spots and short hauls. Just my 2 cents. OregonF650GS

• The RT is the best bike I've ever owned for cross country touring--I had one for 3 years then rode the F650 at the Rhinebeck MOA rally and traded the RT in on returning home for the F650---The reason is that for me, the RT is a big bike and with a full tank of fuel, top heavy---It is fast, comfortable and the electric controlled windshield is a great thing---It is soooo smooth--going down the PA turnpike enroute east to the Rhinebeck rally and wondered why no cars were passing me--all was so serene and smooth--looked down and was doing 96mph---fortunately no highway patrol were in the vicinity--If one had a GS and an RT you would, in my view, have the best of both worlds. One more thing---I never felt any surging but I tend to keep the rpms up and I think this helped. Bill No.391 Las Vegas

• Price the replacement fairing panels before you buy one, especially if you're vertically challenged or a 110 lb weakling. Drops are inevitable (at least in my case). Marty #436-Chicago-97 F650F

• I believe I made the right choices with my '03 Dakar and '02 1150 RT. The RT is an excellent companion to the Dakar and is used for occasional commuting and runs up and through the northern Sierras. It has run without issue since it was new, and at 9k miles, it seems to keep improving. It is shifting smoother, revving faster, and it has always handled superbly. Although the Honda and Yamaha seem to be good contenders in this category, I personally give the BMW an edge from the standpoint of looks, comfort, warranty, and aftermarket support. I prefer bikes that have a touch of character, hence my choice of the BMW single and twin. The Japanese have refined their bikes to the point where they sometimes lack the personality I prefer. This is a personal choice and I would suggest riding each before handing over $$$. Jeff #398 '03 Dakar, Nor-Cal.

• I ride my 650 GS Dakar everywhere. I have rode it two up from Southern California to Canada and beyond. I have had it almost 2 years and have over 16000 miles. It works great around town, dirt roads and works fine on the HWY. Yes, a bigger bike would be nicer( maybe), but people are amazed when the see what I do with this bike two up loaded with side and top bags on it. My friends ride boxer twins and the cant believe what this little bike does and at the speed it does!! If I can spend 16 days on this bike two up with boxer twins, well, it passes the test. Kevin GS Dakar

• Somebody on this board asked if anybody had ridden a Transalp, compared to an F650 or a KLR, and now I can't remember which thread the question was in. So here's my humble opinion anyway. For ten years or so, until the F650GS era, this family had a Transalp. (as well as an earlier one, actually almost forgot) Took the more recent one on an extended (four months of riding every day) tour of Mexico and Central America. They are rugged and reliable, and if they had been available new last year, we might well have bought another one instead of the second 650. I'd sure think twice before taking a FI bike into some of the remote areas we went into. The Transalp is very tolerant of the amateur mechanic type of repairs. The Transalp is nothing like the KLR. It's much closer to the F650GS. In fact it's on the other side of the GS. Compared to the GS it's top-heavy, and it feels quite a bit heavier. This biases it more to the highway, actually, than the GS. Cross winds don't bother it nearly as much, and it's a comfortable ride, in the sense of being very steady on the highway. However, on long distance trips, the stock seat is a tad less comfortable than the stock GS seat, for a big guy anyway. There is less vibration, of course, because it's a twin rather than a single. On the other hand, it's more of a handful off road. As I said, it feels heavy, and you have to work harder on anything but a fairly civilized two track. It has the advantage of being a whole lot cheaper than the BMW. All in all, it was one of the all time favourites around here. mspeed #1023

• Transalp - my experiences. Copied and pasted from the Owners & Bikes page of my BMW F650 website. I owned a Honda Transalp XL600V for 10 years and loved that bike. It took me commuting, it was loaded up to the hilt when required, it took me camping in the UK and through Europe and Spain to the Picos Mountains. It was blasted along the motorways, (when necessary), for hours on end in total reliability. It was also used locally for some 'easy-ish' Trail Riding, although I found it was a pig to pick up when dropped, especially in muddy conditions. While I had the Africa Twin I kept wishing I'd kept the Transalp and not bought the A/T, but that's progress. Anyway, when I sold the Africa Twin, (due to lack of use), I was given a 50cc scooter by a neighbour to get around town on, so I had plenty of time to look for a replacement bike, which had to have the ability to go off-road and be as good as the Transalp in all respects. I looked very hard at both new and good second hand Transalps, but didn't like the styling of the 'new shape' one and I also looked at the CCM and various other offerings such as the XT500/550 and super-motos. I had tried a second-hand BMW F650 Strada some time earlier, but at that stage it wasn't on my 'buy' list, 'cos it had been well thrashed. It was quite by chance I was visiting a BMW dealer who offered me a ride on the 'latest' F650, the GS model, and although it was a cold and uninspiring day, I knew that after 5 minutes into the ride this was going to be my next bike. I rode it gently through the town, then thrashed it up the local bypass, found some rough tracks and checked its ability there and I was elated. Enough power for me for long touring jaunts and nimble enough for the 'lanes' and Town traffic. I returned and placed my order. The things I like about it which to my mind are 'better', (for me), than the Transalp is (1) The seat which is much comfier, 'cos it's wider. (2) Because it's lower than the Transalp, I find it easier paddling around in parking places in Town, including my awkward parking place by my house and also when 'Green Laning' at times. (3) 70 mpg from the F650GS v 49mpg from the Transalp (4) It's lighter than the Transalp to make a real difference for me (5) It feels less 'wallowy' than the Transalp did when ridden hard, but that may well have been down to the age of my Transalp, 'cos it was 11 years old when I sold it. The Transalp does have slightly better weather protection from its larger 'fairing', but that wasn't significant in 'my' final choice. I find the 'buzziness' of the engines to be about the same, but different, because of the engine configurations. Trevor #999

• Here in Norway, Transalps are actually priced slightly higher than the F650GS. Very good bikes, though, and have been very popular with the local dispatchers for years. I know the owner of one of the MC dispatch companies, and I believe his Transalp has gone almost 300 000 km now. The engine was completely dismantled at 150 000 km, and showed almost no wear at that stage. Better wind and rain protection than the GS, but much more boring appearance than the Dakar. Both the Transalp and GS are very good bikes for the kind of riding we have in Fjord country,