When asked which connection, Alternator to Coil
(plug at end of 8)
or Coil to Plug (1-2)
,
Guz noted it was the Alternator to Coil Plug.
The Connector circled green in this picture.
Customising the EEPROM to allow upload of Old Version of the FI Software
'01 Surge Poll : to Jun '01
'02 Surge Poll : to Jul '02
'03 Surge Poll : to May '03
See also the Survey Section for early feedback
For Other GS FI Information see the Fuel Injection FAQ
If you are looking for information on Starting Procedure e.g. "Cold Starts" see Starting Procedure is Important.
This section discusses surging AND stalling. With regards the latter, the cry "My Bike just Died" might not be the FI System Problem.
S&S is inextricably linked to FI. And the FI is a synergic system with air intake, fuel supply and exhaust systems. Warranty considerations rule here for most GS owners. All these mods are controversial, and the majority view seems to be that the software solution is safer. I always wait till the warranty runs out or I drop my bike and crumple it before I get the hacksaw out.
Check the Battery Connections! See Check the Battery Connections
Check the Sidestand Cut-Out Switch. Just Toggle it a bit and clean it if necessary.
Check the Neutral Wire (especially if your Oil has just been changed). See GS Oil Change, specifically This is the neutral indicator wire
Check the Starting Procedure is being followed.
Try and perform a BMS Reset Procedure.
Check the Big Motronic Connector, The VR Connector and the ABS Connector (If you have ABS). See the Fuel Injection FAQ
Check the Clutch. See Check the Clutch Play.
Check the Chain. See Chain-Related Surging in the General Chain FAQ.
Check the Speedo/ABS Sensor. On the GS/Dakar WITH ABS, Speedo Sensor is at Front Wheel, LHS. On the GS/Dakar without ABS it is fed off the REAR Wheel.
Check the Air Sensor in the Snorkel: See Hard Starts - Problem 3 and the Air Filter Location GS FAQs
Check the Cable to the Coil.
Check your Wheel Rims are True and you didn't get Mud Stuck in the Valves or in the Tubes.
Check the Throttle Cable Adjustment (or Routing): See Throttle Cable Adjustment.
Check the Cable Pump Lead inside the Fuel Tank isn't going "Open Circuit"
Check you're not getting a vapour Lock. Try opening then closing the Gas Cap. See Vapour Locks
Use Regular Octane Gas (Requires Remap): See the FAQ Can I use Regular Octane Gas on the GS/Dakar.
Fuel Nanny: Seems to help for some. May spoil your fuel efficiency. I’ve heard reports that surging and stalling can get worse, but only one at a time, i.e. if you still surge you don’t stall as much, and vice versa. Refer the Fuel Nanny FAQ.
Snorkel modifications may help. Take the fake tank off, disconnect the front snorkel (the hard black plastic hose that runs from the air filter forward underneath the headlight). Drill two 1" holes to the inside or bottom of this piece or cut it back to just in front of the sensor. The theory is that drilling these holes prevents the air flow sensor from rich-lean pulsing as the air buffets the small stock air intake which causes contributes to the surging. The extra holes may let water into the system if you ride in (British summer/Washington state) torrential rain. More information in the Snorkel FAQ.
Check the Fuel Filter is not Blocked. (You could also consider Fuel filter modifications): The BMW filter is integrated into the injector and expensive to replace. Inserting a high flow rate filter upstream of the injector may be a good idea. Suggested filter is the K&N #81-0312 Mini-Billet Fuel Filter. Have a look at the Fuel Filter Fixes Surging Feedback and also the Fuel Pressure FAQ.
Injector: the R1200 injector fits and works well for some people, follow the How do I remove the injector? Instructions. The combination of snorkelcision, R1200 injector and Staintune exhaust seems popular. See below for feedback on the Injector Swap and ECU Update. As of the Feb 2001 model (Build Date) it is JUST the ECU Update as all new GS's have the NEW Injector now anyway.
Exhaust: S&S seems also to be affected by your pipes, the ECU does have a sensor in the exhaust. QED. Refer Exhaust Modifications GS FAQ for further information.
ECU and S&S: See Robert from Austria's EPROM Customisation below, plus here’s a few suggestions from the message board:
Disconnect the O2 sensor: See the Fuel Nanny FAQ for further information, including information on disconnecting the Oxygen Sensor even if you do NOT have a Fuel Nanny.
Electrical Modification to Circuit by Inserting a Resistor.
Replace the stock plug with an projected tip spark plug.
Stalling Only:
Make sure You're using clean GAS or it could block the Fuel Filter Unit.
Double check your Air Intake Temp Sensor on the Air Intake right near the air filter. If this is loose or not connected at all, you will experience the stalling you're talking about. SScratch.
Dave wrote "I come to a red light, put the bike in neutral, and when I put it in gear and attempt to pull away the bike stalls. I need to put her back in neutral to restart, before being able to continue". I think your particular problem is being caused by a sticky clutch switch. There's no other reason for that to happen unless it's that switch. There are three interlinked switches on most modern motorcycles which (1) Prevent you from riding off with the sidestand down and (2) Starting the engine while the bike is in gear if the clutch lever is not pulled in. There is a small pin-type switch, the end of which you can see if you pull the clutch lever right in and look in the gap near the clutch pivot bolt. It goes to a small switch hidden away in the end of the second cable which runs alongside the actual clutch cable. If that pin doesn't pop out when you pull the clutch lever in, then the electrics think you've still got the clutch lever out, and refuses to allow you to start the bike in gear, which is what you are describing. Maybe it's just slow coming out which explains that by the time you've got the bike into neutral, it then works ok. Sometimes it can be freed up by using long-nose pliers and just *working* it, maybe it tiny bit of WD40. Better still undo that "cable" and give it a good clean up. Of course it's possible the end is damaged, so that'll need replacement of the switch. Trevor, Bristol, UK, 01 GS, CG member #999.
by various
The terminals on the GS come loose easily. In off-roading the bikes I definitely have found a few times the loose connections in the batteries which cause 'mystery' starting problems. It's a PITA because the covers have to come off, but fixable/avoidable nonetheless. DHP #711
This battery problem is very common. If you look at the design of the cables that go to the battery you will see that they have a lever effect on the fasteners to the side that vibration causes them to loosen. Bad design. I am sure BMW has seen this problem because all the new bikes coming through have lock washers taped to the top of the battery as an after thought. I have installed these lock-washers on my bike and it has cured the problem. Stuportech
Check your battery cables. My '01 GS has early software and never really had bad surging. What was there early was resolved at the 600mi service by a valve adjustment. A couple weeks ago the bike started stalling occasionally at stops, at speed, and generally running rough0. When it stalled the needle would jump above redline (freaking me out) and the first couple of times the bike started itself up as I wasn't quick on the clutch. It would stall at the next light for sure, then I could start again like nothing was wrong. I was removing the G&G fender light I installed (so the dealer wouldn't look at it and right off say "well there you go...") and found my positive battery cable was kind of loose. Not real bad, but not tight like it should be. I tightened the cable up, ran the Motronic start-up sequence and no more stalling. Anyway, it's worth a look. ksj
On the way home this afternoon, cruising along in the #1 lane of the 4-lane mega slab and the engine starts cutting out. This used to happened once in a while before my last software update but this was clearly something more. I had to make for the shoulder. Exhibited all the symptoms other people have described; won't idle, Tach swings wildly, cuts in and out, backfiring, the lot. A quick roadside triage turned up nothing bad like a chain problem or major oil leak so I limped down to the next off ramp, found a parking lot and had at it. Went for the battery first, looked fine, reset the BMS anyway, no luck. Started checking all the other electrical connections that I could find. Nothing. Then wishing I had a wireless PC to check the FAQ's I went back to the battery knowing in the back of my mind that it had to be electrical. Seems I did not check the positive terminal very well and it was clearly loose. Oh yeah, that was it. Put it all back together and off I went. BradG 1002, N, CA '01GS.
Bucking Bronco. Found the positive battery terminal a little loose. Removed both terminals losing bolt somewhere down below the battery box in the process. Reconnected terminals with new bolt. Reset the BMS as per FAQ and engine now runs again, no more cutting out or surging. Funny there was never any problem starting bike despite loose connection and clock never lost time. Justin.
Battery connection loose. There have been several threads talking about stalling, difficulty starting, and hesitation when applying generous throttle. I thought I would summarize my experiences in this thread. Executive summary: If you are having any of the above problems, check both battery terminals for a good solid connection. I had a hesitation problem appear soon after I purchased my CS. Under steady heavy throttle, the bike would jerk forward and then cut out repeatedly. It behaved as though I was twisting the throttle full open and then full closed. Kind of like riding a bucking bronco. This problem was reported to the dealer. The service folks discovered that the positive battery terminal had come loose. Everything was great for 2000kms after that. This past weekend the bike did the same hesitation thing once or twice... then in the middle of traffic the engine just stopped. I found myself coasting around left turn in a busy intersection. It did this 6 or 7 more times on the way home (about 4kms). Each time it would take a try or two to restart... I tried turning the key off/on and the kill switch off/on. Didn't seem to make any difference to the responsiveness of the restart. I noticed that during this funkiness, the tachometer was indicating all over the map (I'd be somewhere around 3000rpm and the Tach would peg at 8000 or so... then the bike would hesitate... then stall.) When I got home I pulled off the seat and checked the positive battery cable. It was on securely, but the negative one was loose. I tightened it up and went out for a long afternoon ride with not a single glitch. I have no idea what torque those lead bolts and nuts can handle. I will be applying a bit of extra oomph and checking frequently for the next long while. If you have been having problems similar to mine (or anything else that seems wacky), try tightening your battery terminals and post back here with your results. Note: I've heard that it is possible for the battery posts to have a loose connection *inside* the battery. If your connections seem tight but you have problems like I described above, you may want to hook up a simple voltmeter and try wiggling the posts a bit. Amos - Orange 2002 F650CS - Ottawa, Canada.
The same thing has happened to me on my Classic. Richard #230: 1997 Funduro,
You can add me too....my CS had a loose connection on the + terminal. Riba
Yea add me to that list - when I took it back to the dealer (bike had 300 miles on it when the engine cutting out started to happen) - they said it was the positive terminal. Apparently during the pre-sale inspection the mechanics missed tightening down the bolt - makes me wonder what else they've missed. alowishus
Me too. When I was fitting the accessory socket, I noticed that the + terminal had worked itself loose. It seemed to be because the 'springiness' of the positive lead was tending to unscrew the blighter. Worth keeping an eye on. Keith (BBG #17) '02 F650CS. Chiefkeefe
Next.
See the Battery FAQ for more details on Battery Maintenance. On the GS you CAN just remove the Centre panel to check the Battery. See GS Battery - Easy Access.
Check the Clutch Setting -
Stalling Fix
by Nelson
30-May-02
Last week I did some electrical modifications on my '00 F650 GS. In the process
I had disconnected the battery. When I finished the work and rode, about 5-10
minutes into the ride, the bike would stall, when braking and pulling in the
clutch. I then rode for a while in semi-deserted streets to assess the exact
conditions for stalling. Well, it seemed to occur only when braking and pulling
in the clutch. Not every time, but only under these circumstances.
At home, I checked the FAQ and proceeded to try the stuff in the list by order. First, I reset the FI. This didn't work. It still stalled under the same conditions. Then I checked the chain and sprockets. They seemed fine to me (I've got 10000 miles no it now). Next, I checked the clutch adjustment. Well, I found out that the clutch adjustment at the crank case was 2 millimetres below spec. Hmmm, maybe this is the problem. I adjusted the clutch at both the crankcase and lever to within spec. Then I took the bike for the same shakedown. Whereas before the engine stalled always around the same spot, now it was impossible for me to stall it. I rode for at least half an hour more, doing exactly what I had done before and no stalling.
So, if your bike stalls when you brake and pull in the clutch, it might well be the clutch adjustment. Though, I still don't understand why. Nelson, Sojourner (Toronto).
See the Clutch Adjustment FAQ for details of how to adjust the Clutch.
Feedback:
If the bike is stalling when coming to a stop, check the clutch adjustment. There was a bulletin on using lighter weight oil and adjusting the plates to open fully as they were not releasing. maybe check this too. It would drag the motor down and not allow it to start except in neutral. I know from experience. I thought it was electrical and it was mechanical. Chainsuk '01 F650GS with 17" wheels, NC.
Check the Cable to the Coil
by Guz
After checking, software, spark plug, chain, inspecting injector, possible water in fuel, clutch adjustment, computer changes and more. My dealer found and solve the surging that I was experiencing on my 2002. Problem started after 6000 km. Problem, Power cable that goes to the electrical coil was bad assembled in factory. Was not plug in correct and a oxide started affecting the machine. My 2002 is smooth as before.! I was almost buying the Fuel Nanny and stuff. I'm glad the problem is solved. I'm wondering if some people had or have the same problem. guz.
When asked which connection, Alternator to Coil
(plug at end of 8)
or Coil to Plug (1-2)
,
Guz noted it was the Alternator to Coil Plug.
The Connector circled green in this picture.
Throttle Cable Adjustment/Routing
by SScratch '01 Dakar Nashville
After disconnecting my battery for an inspection the other night I experienced
the dreaded hard-to-start/won't-idle/surging/stalling malady. The advice from
the dealer was bring it in for diagnostics, the advice from this board was turn
key on, crank throttle WFO and back to closed three times, start and ride 30
minutes to reset computer. I chose option two. After 30 minutes, bike was
running but still stalling and surging. I noticed when I turned to full lock the
rpm's picked up a bit, so I suspected throttle cable adjustment was in order.
After adjusting this, the bike purrs as it did before. I would suspect that this
may be the reason that some bikes with the same software version as others do
not run as well. A simple twist of the throttle cable adjustment at the grip
could smooth out your ride, too.
BMW Procedure for testing for S&S F650GS/Dakar Check List
by Adamx #1001
Check for corrosion at battery cable ends and/or loose battery connections.
Check for corrosion at the BMS control unit/control unit cable connection point – both components – This can cause a problem, but WILL NOT register a fault on the MoDiTeC.
Check fuel pressure (3.5 + - 0.2 bar). If fuel pressure does not match specification, replace fuel pressure modulator – P/N 13 53 2 343 565.
MoDiTec – reset adaptation to zero.
Check and correct clutch adjustment at both clutch lever and at housing. See Service Bulletin 13 001 01 (006) dated February 01, 2001.
Check clutch cable for correct routing and a smooth, consistent, predictable movement. Replace and/or re-route cable as necessary – p/n: 32 73 7 661 757.
Change engine oil and filter. Renew with 15W40 or 10W40 weight oil and new filter. See Service Bulletin 13 001 01 (006) dated February 01, 2001.
Check wheel speed sensor for damage. Replace as necessary. Part number – Front sensor: 34 52 2 345 844 Rear sensor: 34 52 2 345 845.
Check battery voltage/BMW control unit condenser. A simultaneous check and comparison of battery voltage is required. i) Connect MoDiTeC in mode to check battery voltage. This reading will take into account battery voltage as read through the BMS control unit. ii) Attached a separate voltmeter to read voltage directly from the battery. Compare the voltage readings of both voltmeters, first with the ignition key off and second with the motorcycle at idle. At maximum, a two (2) volt difference in the readings of the separate voltmeters is allowed in both the “key off” and “idle” tests. If more than a two (2) volt difference is noted, replace the BMS control unit (note production date of both the original and the replacement BMS control units). When replaced, repeat above voltage check and comparison for correct specification.
Insure that after every update of a control unit program, the motorcycle/control unit program combination is allowed to “adapt” to each other. This adaptation process is completed by:
Completing the update of the control unit program with the MoDiTec.
With the new/update program in place, start the motorcycle the first time. Do not apply any more throttle than required to start and idle the engine. DO NOT REV THE THROTTLE. Let the motorcycle stand at idle until the engine has reached operating temperature (until the cooling fan comes on)
Shut off the engine.
The motorcycle is now ready to ride.
The surging problem is easily resolved by changing the values of P2 and P3 in the acceleration algorithm. The firmware on the GS is OBD2 compliant, and is thus accessible via the serial port and a standard "black box" decoder package. The factory P2 value is 55 p/dl; I lowered mine to 15. P3 comes as .09. I raised mine to .22. Surging is completely gone, and smooth pulling throughout the entire RPM range. Naturally, NOx pollutants increase beyond permissible regulatory limits (which is why BMW cannot authorize independent modification of the P values, but has attempted a remapping of the whole algorithm, which obviously cannot lead to results as good as isolation of P values.). Dave Kendall
We found years ago on the early 1100's that setting the proper voltage on the butterfly readings would dramatically control how the bike ran. Rich vs. lean, etc.. I don't recommend that you try this without your understanding that its a problem area you may have to get back to dealer to fix, But... Those of us that have been there on the 1100's have figured it out to a point of no longer needing the dealer to get past the settings I speak of! A digital voltmeter is necessary and the pickup for the Motronic is on the side of the throttle body. You have to figure out which wire is the low rpm circuit and access it (a BMW wiring program for this model would help a lot!) Also, you have to know in advance the proper setting from a currently perfectly running 650. A lot to ask, but I believe it can be problem solved with the right charts and meters without changing any chip or other hardware. I may be all wet here and those more electrically knowledgeable will no doubt key in on this, so have at me! All I know for sure is that I've accomplished this on my R1100 and its perfect beyond anything the dealer was able to do for me! One more thing; the Motronic has to read a certain voltage input from the butterfly position inside your throttle body to run properly. You find the data link to know this setting and you are home free. Its adjustable on the older bikes. Check your new 650's and see if the throttle body has a electrical pickup on the side of it and if it has two Allen screws in it. There you are. I'm not sure on the new 650's, so look! I know warranty is in place, so most of you will not ever challenge the system here, but the earlier days of this electronic stuff left us without much choice if we wanted to get it right, we dug in. The dealer guys just could not get it done! Rob Lentini of BMWMOA fame has done much research on this topic (R1100 related) and would be another to contact if so inclined. anon
I don't know what Staintune offers, but the fuel injection for our bike is not chip-able in the traditional sense. The EEPROM is only reprogrammable. Also be careful in removing the entire air filter assembly. The air temperature sensor will set a code/ check engine light if left unplugged and the funnel shaped boot that fits over the throttle body is important for power. Remove that funnel and you may take one step forward and two steps back. Instead try a K&N filter in the stock location and open up the intake snorkel to the point where the air temp sensor is. Good luck. BGG #834
Here is the answer I got from my expert contact at BMW (UK) regarding this problem. Message begins... The oxygen sensor or lambda probe should not cause this problem. It works by measuring the un-burnt oxygen content in the exhaust gas and sends a signal to the control unit for processing. It works in a sine cycle. (When it measures a rich mixture the control unit shortens the injector opening time to lean off the mixture, when the sensor then sees the mixture going lean, it's signal makes the control unit lengthen the injector opening time to richen the mixture!) The voltage operation range is between 200 and 600 mV. If the mixture goes excessively lean or excessively rich the sensor signal will go beyond it's normal operation range and will register as a fault in the control unit memory. If the fuel pump pressure was too high then this could cause a repeated fault in the memory. It is worth noting that the starting procedure for the F650GS is very important. It is as follows. Turn on the ignition, wait for the temperature light to go out, (about 3 seconds) and press the start button until the engine fires. DO NOT open the throttle in this process as the throttle position sensor signal is not permanently remembered by the control unit (as with other systems). The control unit takes a reading during the first few crankshaft revolutions. If the throttle is opened, then the base throttle setting will be incorrect for the duration of the engine running. Replacing the oxygen sensor is often done thinking that this is the cause of the problem when in reality it can be something else affecting the injection process. Message ends. See also http://www.trevorgeorge.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/650surge.htm. Trevor #999 (UK).
The ECU is made by HELLA. I have tried to remap the FI but I do not have the knowledge to do it. You can look at the software and modify it by the use of various programs. One of it is MISTERED by Hansen. The best of it should be DMEEDIT by Jim Conforti (Bonnevillemotors). The software is NOT scrambled and if I had a DynoJet and of course more time I would have experimented with it. To get the software you have to use an EEPROM reader or you can contact one of the following chip tuners: http://www.obd-tuning.at, http://www.bbpower.de, Robert from Austria.
2000 GS- 23000 Km., I do not think any of my experiences with S/S and worse ought to get into the statistics as I sincerely hope and also believe that my experiences must be a one off! I probably got a Monday hangover bike ! Bought a demonstration bike- it had 2000+ Km on the clock. During the first 3 months and 10000Km all was well and I loved the bike and its engine characteristics. I felt at times some "mild" surging but NOT anything too bad. Late that first autumn it "died". As winter conditions came soon afterwards I had no hurry to get it fixed as I rather use my Guzzi during the winter. I soon discovered that the big waterproof connector to the Motronic was filled with water and one of the "spades" inside was missing- just green copper- oxide left of it. At the same time I discovered that a lot of the other connectors also was "damp" and, to a lesser extent also had signs of the green stuff. I checked them all out, (except one) cleaned them up with CRC 6-66, tooth brush and a lot of patience and filled them with some Mercedes- non conductive grease used on their cars for just that purpose. I got a new Motronic with program 9.3 and after that I have had nothing but trouble. My bike surged and stalled, on and off. At times it ran like before the swap, at other times the surging was real bad. Also had some scary moments when the bike just died. I got the 10.? program. Then the stalling went away but it still surged a lot. Had to keep it over 4200rpm at all times. You can not always do that in traffic without frying the clutch. Just lately the engine has, at times, started to just cut out as soon as I let the revs drop below 2200 -2000 rpms. Not just misfire but drop absolutely dead. This condition is not consistent, it comes and goes. I then have to restart it and it then sometimes runs like it should, at other I just have to keep the revs up. It also, when the 2000rpm syndrome is present, does not take any slow or quick opening of the throttle below some 4500RPM`s. Approaching a hill and opening the throttle a bit makes it just drop the revs. I have to change down to get any response. This is also not consistent, unfortunately. When I have the "die below 2000" syndrome, sometimes it also has the "do not open the throttle" syndrome, at other times not. The last thing to be discovered was that the big connector on the ABS unit also was partly filled with "green" stuff and one of the spades was corroded away. (That is the only connector an the bike that I had not checked out). I have had the ABS warning light on a lot of times, also intermittent. As I usually turns the ABS of it did not matter a lot (except that the speedometer also stopped to work). I have a faint hope that BMW will replace that one also ? I am just waiting to have the injector changed but if that and a new ABS (does that have anything to do with my S/S problems?) does not cure my bike I just want to get rid of it and never have to use a BMW product again. I love the bike and the engine as it was before! Haakon #626
I have had three (3) FI software versions on my '01 F650GSA....and I had the Fuel Nanny for a month. I like the newest 10.1 software the best, hands down. Suggestion: The cable and throttle initial setting of opening it all the way 2-3 times before starting the 1st time (after battery is disconnected for 2-3 minutes) is VERY IMPORTANT to do. One of my BMW service guys didn't know about it, so maybe not all do. This makes an immediate difference in how the engine revs. The reason this is important is the it "teaches" the ECU the length of the throttle cable, adjusts for cable stretch, and measures the OPEN and CLOSED throttle positions. This makes the throttle response snappy, and fun to drive as only a little twisting is needed to rev the engine. Ignore this initial ritual and your throttle response is lazy and needs a lot of twist for the engine to rev. The cable feels slack to the ECU. My smart BMW guy also said a second part of this initial ritual is to let the bike idle until the fan comes on, after you start it for the 1st time from an ECU re-set. This teaches the ECU engine warming pattern. I swear by the above procedures and have excellent results in HP and performance from my 10.1 software, and with no surging or stalling, period. Joe #1065. See also Resetting the Motronic.
The (FI) Pegaso still has the original (Rotax??) twin carburetted cylinder head, whereas the BMW cylinder head is of their own design and manufacture. The Pegaso still breathes through the two inlets fed by two separate injectors. I have no idea if they are different in size (aperture) or software controlling the two injectors, but I'm told by a friend who has ridden one, that they don't surge or stall. But neither does my GS surge or stall any longer so I'm a happy GS owner. (Maybe it's different emissions requirement in UK/Europe to USA). Trevor #999.
I spoke to somebody in the loop last week, and I found out that all fuel injection motors suffer from surges. It's apparently quite normal (and yes, normal for all manufacturer's motors). Obviously, you're not going to know about a surge on an inline six cylinder motor, as you have 5 other pistons doing the work as well. Even the K series and R series motors suffer from the problem, but it's simply not detectable (for the rider) with multi-cylinder motors. The OBC controls the fuel injection, so I suspect that whatever software upgrade BMW makes improves the scenario somewhat. But it seems that tangible surging on thumpers are not likely to disappear in any hurry. Bernard.
Sure its harder to set up a FI on a single but the Fuel Nanny device people or whatever they call themselves these days seem to have done a better job than BMW. Surging on the R series and it seems F series varies from bike to bike. Some are unrideable, some must have so little surging it is unnoticeable to the rider. You can go from one to the other with a click of a mouse button at your unfriendly, incompetent BMW dealer and then they'll blame you! Other dealers can fix a problem just as quickly. BMW should test the bikes before they launch them and then they should listen to the customers. The current get it out of the factory and blame the customer attitude is poor from any stand point but that of a dodgy used car salesman. The only limitation on BMW is that they must meet the emissions and noise legislation, but they do have more resources to work with. If they can't make the FI user friendly, dealer maintainable and legal, they should have stuck to carbs until they fixed it.
It is not a must that EFI-engines do surge. If the
ECU is sophisticated enough there is no surging. On the F650GS it is the problem
that the ECU is too weak and there is missing one sensor. With that poor
equipment it is not possible to control an engine with a
3-way-catalytic-converter in closed-loop mode without the surging problem.
Naturally it is aggravating when the engine has only one cylinder. Robert #1071
Customising the EEPROM to allow upload of Old Version of the FI Software
Robert B., Austria
edited by Kristian #562
27/11/01
This FAQ is about my custom method of fixing the S&S problem. I hope this information will also be useful to other F650GS riders with ongoing Surging & Stalling problems.
In early 2000 the bikes that were shipped in Europe had a built-in software that gave the F650GS more noticeable torque and there was absolutely no surging or backfiring. The only problem was sometimes the bike stalled. The rest of the story is written in other FAQs on Surging and Stalling.
As I was very unhappy about the surging I decided to try and upload the old software back again.
As I was not able to communicate through a serial connection with the HELLA Motronic, I had to remove the EEPROM. To do this you have to unplug and open the box housing the EPROM.
Here is a Photo of the EEPROM:
When removing the main board you have to take into consideration that the plug is fixed to the metallic casing with some glue. That glue has to be softened by heat, but not in direct contact, e.g. a hair dryer. In addition there is a metallic grounding connection which has to be cut. Both can be seen on the attached figure.
Here is
a photo of the what you should cut:
The metallic grounding is connected to the (pin marked green) on the plug and
the attachment is located under the plug (position is indicated by blue
arrow). That connector is nearly inflexible and the other end is mounted to
the metallic housing. You have to have a very special tool to remove it. As we
did not have that tool we had to cut it. As a replacement for the connector we
soldered a cable (red arrow) onto the pin.
Then we
soldered out the EEPROM and read the current software using the equipment of a
chip tuning company. That software was version 9.2. As no one had any idea how
to remap the existing software, we decided to “downgrade” to the old European
software.
You can get a copy of the software at http://www.obd-tuning.at. This company has a lot of experience in doing this. I believe http://www.bbpower.de has also got a copy of the old software.
The review of the old European software was made with MISTERED by Hansen at http://www.freemred.de/main.htm. Every software version is 512 k bytes and is not encrypted. MISTERED is software which can read the contents of the EEPROM and you can even modify it. In addition it is possible to make a graphic overview of the FI mapping. First you read the EEPROM's contents into a PC. You then have a 512 k byte file on your PC. In addition to the standard abilities of MISTERED to modify the file, MISTERED can also make a graphic interpretation as shown above. This Graphic Image of the mapping is very helpful in identifying the various parts of the file as it consists of a program and the "Kennfelder". "Kennfelder" is the mapping table which is tells the program how rich the fuel/air mixture has to be for various conditions.
Now my F650GS is running with the old software in combination with the new injector #0280155788. I have full power/torque across the whole rpm range, reduced vibrations and no surging even down to 2000 RPM. The only disadvantage is a higher fuel consumption of about 25 percent.
Initially the stalling reappeared but after about 500 miles of driving the frequency of it decreased dramatically. I can now say I have a perfect running bike and would recommend anyone still plagued by surging and stalling to go the same way.
There is no reason why this approach should not work on bikes in the USA or the UK. http://www.obd-2.com/routepit.htm.
|
No. on EEPROM |
No. on CPU |
Returning back to the original software. What you need is a special soldering-kit, a special forceps, an EEPROM reader/writer and a PC. You can find the EEPROM Part No at http://www.geocities.com/robertosat/. So a specialist can tell you which size of forceps and so on is needed. You cannot download the software on the net but you can ask Haakon in Norway for it. Some weeks ago he posted that he is willing to do it. IMHO it would be safer to send the DME to www.obd-tuning.at. Mr. Baumgartner has a lot of experience in doing it and he is a very careful working man. The last time the whole procedure took him about 15 minutes. To me it would take about 2 hours and I am not sure if it would work afterwards. You can also ask Mr. Baumgartner if he is willing to send you the programmed EEPROM. Robert.
No
question, if I couldn't have managed to get the old European software I would
have bought that Fuel Nanny at that time. But with my present knowledge I
wouldn't buy that FN.
So please have a look on the net for power boxes. There are a lot. Maybe the
most famous is one is the POWER COMMANDER . When you read the reports about it
you will see that it is very costly to tune an engine. And it is much more
difficult than it is described at Techlusion's site. Besides there is always
the possibility that you destroy the engine with wrong settings. In addition
it is the statement of many real experts that the brown curve on the DynoJet
run at Techlusion must be a fake. So it is my advice that you get the 5001.
That 5001 was designed by BMW for a perfect open-loop running engine.
What are the S/W Versions and Injector Numbers
by Robert B., Austria
Buying or Swapping an Updated
BMS Unit
by
Robert B., Austria
Q. O.K. That sounds great, but I can't do that.
Does anyone else do it. Can they program it for me and send me the Box?
A. Yes. OBD-Tuning do it.
I just received an email from OBD-Tuning. You can buy the F650GS EPROM with the
5001 code on it from them, for $199. See below. This is the Old European Code.
From: "OBD-Tuning" To:
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 14:44:46 +0200
Hi Andre!
Yes, we do offer the pre-programmed chip.
The prices are:
Version 5001 USD 199,-
The prices include Austrian taxes. Please add USD 5,- for shipping in
Europe, USD 10,- for Rest of World. Prepayment with crossed cheque.
Kind Regards
G. Baumgartner
http://www.obd-tuning.at/
Q. BMS C (Motronic) replacement. Does a new
spare BMS C unit would already contain the code (software) so that if you
install it out on the road somewhere it would work? I'm wondering if I were in a
country with no BMW dealer or techs and my BMS C died that I could have a new
one shipped to me and I could install it myself without any special tools.
A1. I priced a new BMS here in Australia,
A$686 for it. If you wanted a spare, buy it and fit it to your bike and get
latest version loaded to it, then take it out and put in your spares kit. The
only worry I have with killing a BMS is.....if you are on a trip and your
battery goes open circuit, THEN your VR/Alternator could spike the BMS and fry
it. Your battery can break an internal bridging strap between cells, which
effectively makes it open circuit, the VR will get upset and possibly die too.
Not sure if the BMS has internal surge suppression to protect it from excess
voltage. You could make an external protection circuit for the BMS if you are
paranoid about a failure. Jack F650GS Australia
A2. Most modern vehicle electronics have diodes and resistors that
protect them from over voltage. Most 12 volt ECU's will survive 17-18 volts for
1-2 seconds. Hopefully as this happens the fuses blow and the ECU survives. The
ECU should also shut down, so the engine will stop and the alternator should not
be able to fry the ECU. Jump starting devices and welding are the usual culprit
for damaged electronics. I have seen a 24 volt jump starter that was able to
produce 50+ volts. The ECU's go at 32 on these systems, the vehicle owner was
using an M4 bolt as the fuse. The protection diodes become £700 fuses. Andy
Leeds UK #982
Notes on Programming the EEPROM
BMW is communicating via that MoDiTec-plug whereby a proprietary protocol is used. At the moment some guys are trying to identify that protocol. One friend of mine is building a plug, which should connect directly to the soldered EEPROM. I wonder if that will work. Maybe it should be also possible to connect via the plug on the DME. At http://www.diy-efi.org you can get some information about that. But up to now IMO it's the only way to unsolder that EEPROM.
Either you put a spy on the cable and ask your dealer to reprogram your bike, or you disassemble the contents of the Flash memory, which would be a lot of work, but would allow you to do anything, (with the ECU that is), including tuning if possible. RakaD.
The CPU is a 68HC16Z. The problem is I cannot find a disassembler for the 68HC16. Other disassemblers do not work with the 512 Kbytes file. Mostly there is a limit of 128 Kbytes.
There is a guy named Wayne in Australia, Sydney. He has a lot of experience in remapping ECUs and connecting via diagnostic plugs. He wrote me that he is willing to do something for the F650GS. He has got no F650GS but he seems to have a good contact to a BMW dealer. If you are living in that area and are willing to hack the diagnostic plug please send him a mail at wmcdonal@optushome.com.au
9.1 Upgrade & Injector. Just finished a return trip of 3000KM to get the upgrade done on my 2000 Dakar. After the purchase of this bike in Jan, I was one of the unlucky ones with the plagued surging and stalling. Wow I am now driving a NEW bike. This is what a BMW motorcycle should ride like! The trip through northern BC to the South was just wonderful. Fuel mileage increased after the upgrade, from 50mpg to 55 and one tank as high as 65mpg. As for BMW dealer I dealt with {No Names} Found them to be dishonest, I paid $86.00 for an oil change and found all the bolts on the oil tank cover loose and missing! From now on I WILL DO ALL MY WORK! Warranty or not! I urge all who have problems to keep the pressure on your dealer and if that doesn't work phone BMW head quarters {Canada or US} and complain till they listen! I did just that and I did get some help with my traveling costs. Remember it is their screw-up not yours! I am happy with the bike now, as for the purchase from the dealer and the service, let me say never again! Rick B #815
Injectors are identical. My dealer told me that both the new F650GS's and the 1200C's injector are IDENTICAL. He said you could e.g. take one out of a 1200C in case you don't have the specific F650GS part. My bike got the 9.1 update together with the 13711342366 injector together with the MANDATORY remapping of the software. Runs better now but still surges between 3000 and 4000 rpm. Seldom stalls too. Dealer is currently going to install another new software update now. Elmar
Early F650GSs (both the regular GS and Dakar version) were plagued with stalling and surging problems. The stalling typically occurred at idle or upon deceleration. The surging would generally occur between 3,500 and 4,000 Rpms. The US-spec bikes, which had more stringent emissions controls, were most prone to these problems, although ROW (rest of world) owners have reported similar problems. BMW has responded relatively promptly to customer complaints. First, all bikes produced after the 4th week in January, 2001, were fitted with a different fuel injector (the one that is standard of the R1200C and other models), and the BMS Compact (the engine computer) was updated with new software to work with the new injector. There have been very few reports of surging and stalling from owners of this "new production." Individuals considering the purchase of a GS should endeavour to ascertain the production date (stamped on a plate on the steering head), and buy a post January 2001 model. Insofar as earlier bikes are concerned, BMW has offered to update the computer under warranty, WITHOUT changing the injector. This has resulted in significant improvement for some, marginal (and nonexistent) improvement for others. Although BMW has not offered to provide all older production bikes with the new injector under warranty, many individual owners have reported that their dealers have covered such parts and labor under warranty. In any event, warranty or not, many owners have reported a dramatic improvement with the new injector and software, resulting in elimination of all surging and stalling, and a smooth running engine at all Rpms. Joe M.
Injector Swap. Ahhh, life is good. :-) I'm happy to report I was able to duplicate Pat Murphy's success installing the R1200C injector. The bike is a 0700 build, no software/hardware upgrades, 4500 miles. I ordered the injector first thing Thursday morning. That night I took the snorkel off and cut a couple of holes in it. It rained all night so I didn't ride it after I cut the holes. Yesterday I picked up the injector but wanted to ride the bike with just the holes first. The holes without the injector didn't seem to make much difference in the stalling or surging (stalled maybe twice in a 5 mile ride - it's been kinda cranky about that lately). After pacing around the bike looking at this and poking at that for a couple of hours (Pat suggested letting the bike sit overnight to bleed off any residual pressure) if figured, what the hell, it won't be the first time I've been sprayed with a little gasoline. With due care I loosened the hose clamp and wiggled the fuel line off. A little gas dribbled out. I unplugged the electrics, removed the two screws and swapped the injector. The bike did stall once in the driveway. That was the only time in a short 20 mile ride (there were still shower about) with 4 stop signs along the way. The surging is absolutely, positively, gone. The bike feels "fatter" from idle to redline, and silky smooth. Throttle response is improved, too - I thought it was pretty good before. It's hard to tell if the injector increased power because the bike runs so much better in general. I installed the Staintune a couple of weeks ago and am still getting used to that. It sure feels strong though.
After I've put a couple hundred more miles on it I think I'll cover the holes (with inmate approved duct tape of course) and see if I can see a difference. The snorkel intake is certainly smaller than the throttle opening. One caution about the holes though (I kinda wished I'd waited), there's a reason they call that intake ducting a snorkel. Punching a couple of holes in the side of it is probably not going to help keep road spray out of the intake. A consideration if you live someplace like western Washington and spend much time on the freeway in heavy traffic in the rain (I try not to). You know, when it's like riding through a car wash for a couple of hours. We have our own form of water injection up here. Easy enough to remedy with a little duct tape.
I think BMW has been chasing a hardware problem with software, at least until they started talking about a new injector, and it's hard to tell where that's at right now. For me the 109 USD was worth avoiding the aggravation of riding 40 miles (probably in the rain at least one way - we're supposed to be facing a water shortage ...right!) to try the upgrade de jour. And then probably do it again a few hours later.
I'll let y'all know what it does to my mileage. That's probably going to have to wait for a few tank-fulls. It's hard to stay out of the throttle when it runs (and sounds) so good.
I agree that BMW should be picking up the tab. I doubt they would without a lot more than a 100 dollar fight, though. And I may take my bike in for the software upgrade, if it's convenient for me - I'd take the injector too, even though I doubt it would make any difference now. To be honest the R1200 injector (BMW part 13711342366) didn't completely fix everything. When my bike is cold it's not quite as crisp and clean. That goes away in about a block, or the time it takes to put on my helmet and gloves. Once in a while I'll feel something at mid range RPMs, almost imperceptible, and it may be my over-sensitive imagination (or hearing - with the Staintune you can hear everything the engine is doing). When I go back to "look-listen" for it, it's always gone. And it died once yesterday while idling. As far as the warranty goes, I didn't ask. I didn't really care. If I need to take it in for warranty work involving the fuel system I'll switch it back. If I get a letter about the brake recall I'll probably ask them to do the latest software upgrade (and the injector if they offer it) while it's there. If I don't, I probably won't bother. Sometimes my GS didn't surge but most of the time it did. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. The RPM's it surged at would vary between around 3.2K to 4K. Cold or warm. The R1200C part number is 13711342366. Mileage seems to be unchanged, or better. Last 2 tanks have averaged 55+. Used to get 50+. Part of that is probably the Staintune for a couple of reasons. A lot less back pressure and because it's pretty loud at full throttle I tend to use less throttle around populated areas than before. And the engine is still breaking in at 5K miles.
Just installed the newest software on my '01 650 Dakar. Not happy. The stalling disappeared (for the moment) , but the surging lasts from 3500 rpm to 4200 rpm now. Plus the bike is not as strong at low rpms. I note that the upgrade took place in front of the Greek BMW's tech manager that was collecting problems in order to forward them to Germany. So i think, everything was done in the proper way. Michalis - 05-Jul-02
Had the same problem with my Dakar - try moving to 87 unleaded. Seemed to work wonders for me but still have no reason why. Shawn.
GS 650 SOFTWARE Country specific. As for country specific software, here is my experience. I have a 2001GS and do not experience surging. Stalling yes. Not too often though. I went to a reputable BMW service to see what kind of software upgrade they would propose. They offered a CD version 11 (a month ago). I did not know it's existence so I asked if it was new or what. They claim it is made for the southern European countries (Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal) who are supposed to use the bikes mainly in city traffic. Pollux in Athens.
My GS has had the "die below 2000 -2500 rpm syndrome". It lasted for everything between a few minutes to a whole day. I always knew when it was about to happen as it was every time accompanied with DISTINCT "farthing" when closing the throttle. I never found a positive explanation to the annoying behavior. It just happened now and again. After I got the new injector and "modified" ECU map it seems to be cured. Unfortunately, I had a defective ABS unit changed at the same time so I cannot say for sure what caused it. At present, I have disconnected the ABS to see if it happens again. haakon #626(Norway-F650GS)
Problem: Today going along at 130 km/h on my
'01 Dakar the engine just died, no splutter or anything. Checked everything that
I could think of including the suggestions of the 20 or so other bikers that
were on the ride as well. Had spark and fuses are ok but it would appear no fuel
but full tank. Checked FAQ but couldn't find anything. Bike is now in farm shed
140 km away waiting for road side service to collect it. Any ideas of what went
wrong? Dakarau
Solution:
Had the same problem with my 650GS. It was due to the cable pump lead going open
circuit inside the fuel tank. You can check this from the socket under the seat
using a digital volt meter. You should see 12 volts coming from the plug, and
<10 ohms across the socket (Fuel Pump). I
replaced my wiring inside the pump with longer cables. Any auto electrician
should be able to this for you if this is the problem. I am at present
interstate and do not have the bike with me, but there are two plugs on top of
the fuel tank, one is the pump, and the other is the low fuel sensor switch.
Iain in Oz.
based on the (BMS) Wiring Diagrams, the Fuel Pump Plug is the one with the Green and Brown Wires. ed.
Engine tried dying yesterday. Dear Inmates, I have a 650 Dakar 2000, it's done
29,000 KM's, and no, I haven't had the 20,000 Km service done yet. ( I'm waiting
till I hit the US ) This means the original fuel filter is still in.
Yesterday after I crossed the Guatemala / Mexico border something screwy started
happening. When I throttled off, it was exactly like the kill switch had been
flicked, and whenever I slowed down, I had to give it extra gas so as to avoid
stalling. After another 200 KM's the problem cleared itself. Does this sound
like the filter finally has given up the ghost, or was my injector partially
blocked ( if indeed that's possible ) A friendly mechanic in Costa Rica gave a
used filter from a bike that had only done 5,000 kms - and I'm thinking I should
exchange it. Whaddya reckon - was it the filter, or the injector. It's
definitely not the battery, as when it first started dying I had this big stall
at idle, and it took a lot of extra throttle and cranking to get going again. As
the starter was turning the motor over OK, I can rule out electrics. As for bad
fuel, the most recent tank was Shell V-Power, and then Texaco Super. I think
I'll just replace the fuel filter and say my prayers. Jaz #1126
Were you going over a lot of elevation? I have experienced very rare stalling like you describe. I've found stopping, let the engine die, and opening the gas cap (then closing) and starting makes everything fine. If I just stopped and started, the problem would not go away. Rod, CO '02GS
Next.
Electrical Modification to Circuit by Inserting a Resistor (Details not
confirmed)
from Richard #230
Bosch 5893 Lambda Sensor
Initially:
A friend of mine owns a 2002 Dakar and has had surging problems. After some
investigation he installed a 65 ohm (If I recall correctly) resistor in line
with the O2 sensor. He says that this resistor makes the FI computer think
the fuel mixture is a little lean and it richens the mixture, making the
bike run better. He says he is getting mileage in the low 60's and is not
experiencing any surging. I wonder if you could just cut in an appropriately
sized potentiometer into the line and dial in the mixture that you wanted
(within the limits of the system's programming, of course)? This makes
logical sense to me, but as you know, electrons and I don't get along too
well, so keep that in mind whenever following my advice about anything
electrical. The fellow that came up with this idea was an electrical
engineer, BTW. We'll see what happens when he takes his bike in for service.
Since he has 15 bikes, it could be a while before he hits 6000 miles,
though. However, registering fault codes is not one of his big concerns. The
bike apparently is running great and getting 62 mpg, so why worry about such
things? I believe that he tried pulling the O2 plug, but thought better of
that idea when the mileage dropped to 39 mpg.
After some testing:
My
F-650GS Dakar had a huge flat spot from 3-4K RPM and it tended to move around in
the power band. I first added a 10K ohm resistor in series to the Lambda sensor,
it made it run differently, but not really better. I then fiddled with several
different values and found one that seemingly made it run pretty well. But then
it came up with a high speed misfire.
I removed all the gadgetry and the bike began to run fine again. Hmmm. My guess
is that the engine needed to break in. So my unofficial word is to ride it 2500
miles and see how it runs then. My GS cleared up at about 3K miles. I also tried
a Fuel Nanny early on, but due to the closed loop system the bike uses it was
detected and compensation was made in the computer for the extra fuel being
admitted from the use of the pulse stretching Nanny. The Nanny people tell you
to pull the Lambda sensor plug, then the "computer" reverts back to a "limp
along" mode and kicks up a fault code-but the pulse stretching nanny isn't
detected and the bike runs richer.
The good part is the engine runs "better" and the flat spot is eliminated, but
the fuel mileage goes down the hole. I also would wonder what damage if any is
being done to the Catalytic converter.
Um, with the FI and cat the F-650GS runs very cleanly, it's just hard to accept
that the bike runs so badly you think something is wrong with it, I know if I
were to tune an engine to run like that the customer would bring it back with
unkind words. For the $$$ they get for these things It's rather disheartening at
first to take the fact the thing emulates Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang.
Take a couple of good road trips with the bike, I found mine got better with
use.
Feedback:
This sounds good. Just as a thought, will the O2 sensor value required for good running vary with altitude? If so, the resistor may work at sea level but may require a different value in the mountains if this is a step change rather than a change of variation in the signal. In other words does the resistor move the whole O2 vs. signal curve or change its slope? Not the end of the world but worth a check before anyone tries running up and down the Rockies or Alps with a lean mixture. The O2 sensor will use less than 1W power. Andy Leeds UK #982
One year ago I have tried exactly this. I have used various resistors in line and I did even build a voltage divider. But there was absolutely no effect. However there are dummy plugs on the market, e.g. for Porsches, which simulate the signal of the lambda-sensor. Maybe it does work with the current software 8000. At that time I did use the 7002. Robert #1071
What should be done now is to have the bike read for fault codes. It could well be that all the resistor does is cause the Motronic to set a fault and it is now running on just the internal map and it just so happens that the bike at present is running better than it did. It is true that varying O2 sensor voltage can vary mixture. In the early FI days it was common to vary the resistance of the temp sensor with the same result. Stuportech.
As Stuportech said: "It could well be that all the resistor does is cause the Motronic to set a fault and it is now running on just the internal map and it just so happens that the bike at present is running better than it did." Sometimes just disconnecting and reconnecting a connector helps. Below is a link to a lambda sond datasheet from Bosch if you're interested. http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/5893.pdf. Just an example to show what kind of signals one should expect, I doubt that they differ much though, as BMW as well as Bosch is German, and Bosch, sort of, rules... There isn't a need for much variety of function or vendors when it comes to lambda sonds. rakaD.
by cb_abq #1534
Problem: The stock spark plug (NGK D8EA in early models, NGK D8EB in later models) can contribute to surging by allowing carbon buildup in the combustion chamber and on the valves. The stock plug has also been attributed to the "flat spot" at approximately 4000 RPM.
Solution: Replacing the stock plug with a standard projected tip or projected tip Iridium plug, may prevent surging and smooth engine performance. This is particularly helpful if installed at or before 600 mi.
Regarding resistor plugs: All Iridium plugs are resistor plugs. Replacing a non-resistor plug with a resistor plug has no documented effect on reliability or performance. Non-resistor plugs will eventually be replaced by resistor plugs.
All iridium spark plugs produced are resistor version. The reason for this is almost all future applications will require resistor spark plugs and non-resistor spark plugs will be phased out over time due to less demand. The resistor in the iridium spark plugs won't affect the performance of your application due to the diameter of the center electrode tip. This spark plug requires less voltage to fire.
Jon MacQuarrie Technical Customer Service Representative jmacquarrie@ngksparkplugs.com.
| Stock Plugs | Manufacturer | Part No. |
| NGK | D8EA | |
| NGK | D8EB | |
| Standard Projected Tip | ||
| NGK | DP8EA-9 | |
| Denso | X24EPR-U9 | |
|
Iridium Projected Tip |
||
| NGK | DPR8EIX-9 | |
| Denso | No direct replacement listed |
Feedback:
Q.
If I disconnect the O2 Sensor ALONE, will that fix it.?
A1. No. Robert #1071
A2. It will generate fault codes in the 'Mo' which your dealer will see.
If you care. BradG
Q. If I do a REGULAR OCTANE Fuel Map, (Which has been said to give better low-end performance & possible smoothness) but I ONLY use PREMIUM, (cause' that's all you can buy here) will that ruin my engine in the long term. I understand you CAN use the Low Octane (Reg. Fuel) Map with both Premium & Regular.
A1. IMO it doesn't matter if you use Premium or Regular as the current software will ruin the engine so or so. As the ignition starts at 50° before the climax and the mixture is very lean it is a great stress for the engine in a thermic and a mechanic way. The engine is working at it's limit with the current adjustments. I do not mean that this will damage it immediately but it will decrease the life expectancy of the engine. Robert #1071
A2. IF timing is too far advanced, you will hear pre-ignition. IF there were any engine failures due to severe pre-ignition......we would have heard about it by now. If you change to a low octane fuel map and injector change.....you can run regular OR premium....it will not make any difference at all. It will simply mean that Regular will have less potential for pre-ignition, due to the advance being reduced a little. Jack
A3. Can't speak on Fuel Nanny theory, but general theory on pre-ignition (pinging) and pre-ignition overheating dictates that the danger is from running too low an octane where higher octane is required - thus BMW's special FI map for low octane fuel. You want to do the opposite, running hi octane in a low octane environment, which seems like it should be much less critical. Contrary to popular belief, hi octane fuels tend to run slightly cooler, with marginally less "power" than regular. (Yes, for the purists, this is a complete bastardization of terms, ignoring flame fronts, octane compression ignition limits etc, but the effect is the same.) So I think it would be safe and the bike should perform OK with hi octane running under a low octane map. The opposite is NOT necessarily true. Todd #389
A4. To make the engine running without trouble with low octane fuel you have to do one or more of the following: Improve the combustion chamber design: cylinder head, piston "top", valve cooling, spark plug placement, spark plug type and so on. Lower the compression pressure (not necessarily compression ratio, that depends of filling). Lower the ignition timing. Increase the fuel/ air ratio. Probably forgot many other mods. In the Rotax engine most parameters (as to engine design) is set. The low octane map must be ignition advance and/ or fuel- air ratio. BIG QUESTION : If I can believe my mechanic I have the high-octane map installed. My bike is running a lot better (as to small stumbling and power drops) when I use low octane fuel. When running on high-octane fuel the symptoms are much more pronounced. I have tried several times to switch octane. Three and four petrol tanks filled in a row with one or the other. Haakon #626
A5. Still using the standard map. I have tried all ranges of fuel and I just can't feel the difference but I stick to Premium. BradG
A6. Running premium gas on the regular map should present no problem just wasted expense. Stuportech
A7.
Unlikely you will hurt the engine using HIGHER octane than required. A major
gasoline company in the United States was taken to court over promoting their
hi-octane fuel. I believe the quotation from a public action agency was
was..."you won't hurt the engine, but will be wasting $$$". Their new
advertising has the disclaimer, "for vehicles that require premium fuels".
There is also a case to be made that engines might benefit from raising their
octane as they get older. Carbon build-up in the cylinders artificially increase
the compression ratio, and the heated carbon deposits can act as "glow plugs" to
prematurely light the fuel/air mixture under compression. Marty #436
Q. If I buy a Fuel Nanny, but don't want to do the Snorkel Mod as I want
to keep the Stock Exhaust, I'm not interested in a 1 or 2 BHP Power increase and
it rains like a Monster here and I don't want a wet Airfilter, will that Fix
it.?
A1. The FN and disconnecting 02 sensor completely fixed mine. The 10.1
map solved the stalling but not the surge. You do not have to do anything else
to notice how nicely it runs this way. I have a stock pipe and only a slightly
modified snorkel. Instead of chopping it off at the air temp sensor end you can
just cut a sharper angle at the existing end. It will about double the opening
without exposing the system to rain and tire muck. The mounting pin remains.
You'll have to just take a look to see what I mean. I installed a K&N filter so
a little water would not hurt in any case.
Q. Does the LATEST Fuel Nanny TFi 1030 have spade connectors or is it also a rip-into-the-wire job.?
A1.
Yes. Installs just like the older model. You can take it on an off at will.
Q. Are all you FNer's still using your FN? How many have NOT done the
Snorkel Mods AND NOT done any Pipe Mods.? What is YOUR bike like.
A1. Mine runs very well. I'll never go back to stock again. It is worth
spending some time tweaking the FN too. All bikes are different but you can
start with the factory settings and go from there. The instructions are pretty
clear. BradG
A2.
It has been my experience that the 10.1 software, set to regular gas, original
fuel nanny turned down about 25%, with stock intake and exhaust, make a great
running bike. I didn't disconnect the O2 sensor. I use the FN no other mods but
fuel map , bike runs nice, stumbles sometimes when cruising a constant speed
because of the FN. I have backed it down per their instructions but need to go a
hair more. I know the exact problem you are describing. After long phone calls
with the folks at FN I agree with their assessment of the problem. BMW is using
a car type FI system. A car has enough mass and rolling resistance that engine
power is always need to maintain a constant speed. You motorcycle is much
lighter. The bike gets into a position where it has not load on the engine
monetarily and the computer doesn't know what to do so it shuts off. That is
what you are feeling. The Fuel Nanny just give the injector a very small longer
of signal and it gets you through this very small time period. And it works. I
am a believer. I can unplug the FN and the problem comes right back. I do lose a
few MPG in the process. I agree the stumble is maddening and bugged the S##T out
of me. Stuportech
Surging Poll
Poll # 1:
to Jun '01
Note the DATE of this Poll. BMW would appear to have fixed MOST (but not fine-tuned) of the Problems, with the updated S/W by now. The Poll also includes comments from those having done the injector swap.
For GS owners, please indicate build date, country, modifications to injector and/or mapping, and whether your bike stalls and/or surges. Maybe we can gather our own statistics.
US, 6/00 build, new injector and mapping, no more surging or stalling. Joe M.
7/00 Dakar, Stalled and surged. Remapped and injector. NO MORE PROBLEMS. Rick B #815
10/00~US~injector changed and reprogrammed ~ perfect. 03/01~US~straight from factory ~ perfect The older bike was done twice. Discovered that the first dealer had NOT changed the injector. Discovered by examining the part #. Shelley798
02/01 no stalling, minor surging or maybe I'm imagining it. 3000miles in 2 months. Just ran another tank at 65mpg. Scott#805
Build 6/00. GS had horrible predictable surge 3800-4200rpm now gone with latest mapping/injector fix. Bill H
01/01 build date. No stalls that I'm not responsible for. Nothing that I'd call surging. Slight roughness (like a lean spot) around 3500-3800 rpm, rougher when cold--more like a lean spot. If that's the price for 60+ MPG, I'm OK with it. Aaron
01/01 Stalled couple of times. Surges a lot. Have an appointment on Monday and will keep you posted! PS-Should I ask about the rear brake recall or does that not concern my bike? David
05/00 a lot of stalling, no surging, 05/01 new software and new(?) injector, now nearly no stalling and a lot of surging, 06/01 software reset and reduction of the gasoline pressure, now the surging got worse. Robert
GS (with ABS) Build date 03/01, runs perfectly. JD in NJ #803
'01 GSD made 10/00. Surges occasionally and stalls regularly. 1500 miles. Purchased 5/8/01. Ed #670
'01 GSD made 06/00. Surges occasionally and stalls regularly. 2700 miles. Had 3 software remapping and the injector changed. Steve#780
06/00 US surged and stalled. Swapped injector myself, surging eliminated. Still stalls occasionally. Scheduled for 6K service. I'm going to swap my original injector back before I go in and see if I come back with a spare good one. Mike639
Dakar, Jan 01, US (Oregon) 2nd software update, absolutely no problems, 900 miles Russ #792
EU 04/00 no stalling, lot of surging 3000-4000 RPM partial-load. New SW 9.1 installed 04/01, still no stalling, feels smoother on re-acceleration, surging got worse. Will ask for new injector installation at 10000km service which is due. Claude
Dakar, 6/00 mfg date, 4300 miles, no software upgrades, R1200 injector, 2 one inch holes drilled in snorkel, Staintune exhaust. Runs great, no surging but the stalling is much worse than before. Beau A. #645
Manufacturing date:10/00. Run best before the 600 mile service. After service had all kinds of problems including would start very poorly, stalling, surging. After further service and after they removed additional pollution equipment for California, which not needed in Texas, bike run for awhile better but now at 5,000 miles it is stalling occasionally and surges in all RPM ranges except above 5,000 RPM. It surges always when engine is started, cold or hot, which however gets better after a few minutes of running, even after waiting for a few seconds before starter is pushed. Stalling in-frequently, sometimes not for a week, other times, like yesterday two times. Anyway it is very frustrating and I consider my dealer very competent. Next step for me is leaving my bike with the dealer for a week and let them drive the bike on a daily basis and find a solution or otherwise I will request BMW to take this bike back. Peter # 738
2001 Dakar bought in November, 2000 with Built date as July, 2000. I have 3,900 miles on "White Lightening" and she does surge at 3,900 rpms slightly, but I just gas it some. I have not had any modifications done yet - may have it done at the 6,000 mile service interval (depending on the results of this survey). It has stalled on me several times that has put me at risk of my safety wondering what's behind me at the stop light or sign. I can live with the minor surging, but the stalling could kill me!!! Bumblebee in TN #702
I rode a new 650 at my dealer today. Very nice. Before the ride he explained to me that when I started the bike to keep the started button depressed for about 2 seconds, After the bike started. This was required for the fuel injection to "initialize" If this was not done the bike will stall. I rode for about an hour no Stalling. I suggest all of you with stalling problems give it a try. I liked the bike so much that I may sell my R1200C and get a couple. John
I have an 01/01 GS with ABS. They said I was remapped etc at my 600 mile service. Just returned from a 400 mile ride from SF to Clear Lake. The bike stalled a few times and definitely is a little buggy around 3900 rpm; especially coming down from higher rpms. But since I'm no expert, I cannot tell if this is a real "surge/stall" problem or not?! Chris
3/01 build, 1150 miles, stock and runs great (knock on wood). Scott 796
7/00, 800 miles, remapped at 600, still does pretty much what everyone else has said. Don't think the injector was changed, will call dealer in GR, MI and set up another service...I love riding this bike, but this stall/surge problem is really annoying me...This is my first new bike and i expected high quality from BMW when I picked this bike. I will give them awhile to fix it, if not, its gone...goodbye BMW. John
I am a newbie. I just bought my f650. Runs great no stalling, but minor surging at about 3000 RPM under light load. I am just about to my 600 mile check and want to go in informed. Where do I find the number for the FI and the date of manufacture? Aaron
GSD 07/00. At 800 miles with 600 mile service, no updates-runs perfect. Jim #750
My bike stalls and surges a lot. its 2001 i think its made 00/06 I'm from Sweden. Twizz
I think 0/01 GS with ABS. Terrible stalling. New "software download" (my arse and injector ( I'll check the injector #) and now stalls less frequently but dangerously. Sick of the bike. Love it but will sell. It's now backfiring as well. Am threatening BMW. Roger 14
01/00 GS the first 13000km smooth as silk. When I had to change the Motronic-unit I got a new type (no 13 61 7 664 624) as the old one where obsolete. New mapping but old injector. Some days it runs as it once did and others it stalls and surges so bad that just want to ditch it. Haakon # 626-Norway
10/00 build date, minor surging and some stalling, after 600 mile update in which they said I didn't need a new injector the surging disappear with some minor stalling. Here is my advice go ride a newer bike. My friend has one of the latest bikes and it is so much smoother than mine. Tim
Canadian F650GS, Build Date: 02/00, Mileage: 24,800km, The bike ran great until the 20,000km service when it started surging. I'm in Vancouver on Saturday to have the injector/software work done, wish me luck. Andre
2/01, Stalls, USA, No mods. Blaire #772
03/01 build date Dakar. 1,000 miles, No surging. No stalling. No problems. Great pleasure, Great bike! Roger#827
February, 2001 build date. Surged and stalled all the way home from the dealer. Stalled at every light and intersection. Nearly got hit. Very sensitive to temperature changes. Called dealer to complain. New software update at 600 miles. The bike runs perfectly and I am very happy. However, getting the dealer to admit there was a problem was like pulling teeth. I am also convinced that the update work was charged to me during the 600 mile service. Troy
Italy. Man date 01/01. Surging and stalling at the beginning. Some stalling but not surging after the first upgrade. Perfect after the second upgrade. Anedar
I've posted this info several times. Mine is an early production bike purchased from BMW NA's west coast pool with about 750 miles on it. IT CAME TO ME WITH BAD STALLING AND SURGING. (I can't believe that they let press people ride this bike.) BMW and the dealer have tried their best. I have a new (post Jan 2001) computer and injector right off of a new bike. The stalling is gone and the surging improved, but not completely gone. I note that there are several others who still have problems after the upgrades According to my dealer, they have been informed by BMW that the problem is not completely fixed and that they, BMW, are still working on it with high priority. My bike is ride-able, but still not the bike it could, or should be. John #690
Don't know about the build date but I was waiting 1 month for the bike so I think it was just built in April/may. Ireland - No Surging or stalling yet (300 miles) no mods that I know of. Graham.
Only 150 miles so far, Only 1 stall, but surging at a "Steady" speed since I picked it up, say trying to keep 55 mph. Build date 01/01. Mike#761
F650GS May 2000. Since software upgrade and new injector nearly no stalling, better starting and now and new a lot of surging. It's a pain in the neck. From now on I will wait 14 days for a solution. Otherwise I will sell the bike. Serge
March '01 GS, 600 Miles, No Surging or stalling, Running great--knock on wood. Andy #850
GS-Dakar 11/00, NO SURGING AFTER UPDATE., JUST STALLING EVERY NOW AND THEN., HAPPY. Michael / Greece
Ordered mine = 7/00, Built = 10/00, Received = 11/00, Surged and stalled. Didn't ride much as it is winter in US. Told that it would probably improve once broken in. 600 mile check (actually had 1000 miles) 4/27/00 Also did computer fix but dealer said that "we will try this, the only other thing we can do is to changer the injector and that would decrease the mileage". Still surges but at a lower RPM. Stalls at low speeds with clutch in. Otherwise just hiccups at times. Also had gasket replaced near fuel pump/gas tank as fuel ran out when tank full. Getting 50+ mpg for local, shorter trips. 68 mpg on long trip. I now have 2500+ miles on my bike. Dealer told me that it would take time for the computer to "get to know my driving style" Marge.
I asked BMW New Zealand about the surging & stalling and below is there reply. BMW New Zealand is owned by BMW Germany. "The US markets slightly different machines to the NZ spec bikes, certainly there are differences in programming and emission controls. The surging and stalling type issues are now resolved and all subsidiaries world wide should have the correct programs to update the control units. We are able to reprogram control units with the modified software and have been doing for some time now". So you guys should get on to BMW Germany if your US agent can not fix the problem. Dean.
Finished.
'02 Surge Poll:
to Jul '02
2002 GS still Surges. Last Friday I got my 2002 GS, MFD 4/2002. I notice that I get a lot of surging through out the RPM range but mostly around 4K even though I have felt it at 5K and as low as 3K. I thought this had been fixed with the 2001 models, but I guess not. At first, I didn't notice it when I was riding it at the dealer's or on my way home. I felt "something" but I attributed it to rough roads and even when I had a hunch that something was wrong, I wishfully thought it was the road. Now after putting in 300 miles, I know for sure that my GS has surging problems. I've read the FAQ and will try the starting procedure. This sucks!. Ed Northern VA
No surge that I can feel here too (Dakar 02 ABS). NLS
I remember being told when I first got my 01 that I should expect to put on about 4K miles before the engine really felt broken in. Not sure if that is totally true but I can say that the last 4K of my 8K miles have been great. The bike runs very well now. Can't quite put my finger on exactly what but it just feels better than it did in the first 4K. I had plenty of issues with the FI but all that is a thing of the past. Hope it stays that way. My latest tweak was to open up the air intake some (not a complete chop job just increased the existing opening). I'd swear it gained some midrange but no Dyno so it's just apocryphal. BradG 1002, '01GS
Although I have yet to experience any surging per se, I have noticed a slight dead spot in the 3500 to 4000 rpm range on my '02 Dakar, especially when cruising in this range and then accelerating. Seems hesitant. Plans are to install a Techlusion box. Speaking of...has anyone installed this box on the Dakar or had the same experience with the 3.5k-4k rpm range? beem_dubya.
No surging with my '02, but did get a couple of stalls on a long trip riding at big variations in altitude (Colorado). Shutting off the engine and opening the gas cap made the bike run fine. Stalling is extremely rare event. Rod
I had some stalling (maybe 5 stalls) and lots of popping and farting in the first 1,500miles. After the last 3 stalls all happened at the beginning of one trip I thought I'd take the bike in. I didn't and she's behaved beautifully ever since - now at 2,500 miles. Andrew C (UK)
Just picked up my '02 GS today. no surging but it did stall on me a handful of times on my ride home. usually happens when I'm coasting to a stop. hk_rider
My '01 GS is the same = surging from about 3000 or 3500 all the way up to 5500 rpms. 10.1 version that the tech said would solve all the problems. Surging on my '01 GS used to be gone above 4,000 rpms until the latest software upgrade. Now it surges above 3,000 and all the way up to 5,500 on any level or slight grade in any gear. I feel like BMW should install a FN free of charge to finally fix the problem. The "get used to it and adjust your riding style" comment is an outrage. It's like saying, "We sold you a defective product, now shut up and live with it." Stan #770
I am
starting to wonder IF there are country specific versions of the software.
That the U.S. EPA spec is different to say, our Australian spec software, and
whether EU spec is different again.
After my first 1000km service, my machine has run perfect EXCEPT for when I
got to about 3500km...it started to do a few funny things...like very high
idle and revving to 2500rpm on closed throttle at start up. I reset the
"brain" as per the FAQ, over the next 1500km I had to do this another 4 times
to solve the problems. The last 4000km have been totally trouble free, my bike
has run perfect the whole time. I also did some testing with the speedo
sensor.......when I disconnected it.....the bike surged, ran like a real pig
:-( when I reconnected......it still did not run quite right, a "brain" reset
fixed that! So....., I suggest you do the reset yourself and see how that
goes...don't worry about the dealer on this. You will get to see if there is a
before and after change BEFORE you get to the dealer......IF it does not
improve, then tell the dealer what you have done and there was no difference.
That will make them look elsewhere..... and hopefully come up with a fix. As
Haakon suggested, maybe you could get the low octane fuel changes done and see
if that helps.
That surging cannot be cured if BMW is trying to meet the exhaust regulations. For this the CPU of the ECU (Electronic Control Unit) is too weak/slow, there is missing a further sensor and moreover that ROTAX engine was NOT designed for the use of a 3-way-catalytic-converter. I have ridden a lot of different F650GS with the newest software and new injector and they all had that surging, some more and some less. If you are a sensible driver you can always feel it. So forget it! The only possibilities seem to be the use of the Fuel Nanny in combination with the disconnecting of the lambda sensor or you get the old European software (http://www.geocities.com/robertosat). I have done the latter one and I am very satisfied with it. Robert #1071
Surging
- No, don't let that scare you - I read the FAQs, which helped tremendously
(thanks to the hard efforts of the 'editors'!). About a month ago, I traded in
my 650gsa 2001 for a 2002 GSDA for the better off road capability. A minor
play in the decision was the constant and seemingly unfixable surging of the
previous bike. So, the Dakar - beautiful bike and behaved like a dream. Not a
hint of a surge or stall. That is until I took the bike in for the 600 mile
service (which apparently is just an oil change) after which the surging was
so pronounced it made the bike difficult to ride.
Now, this maybe just a coincidence, but I'm sure that it was fine before the
service and surged after. So I took it back in to see if they could fix it.
The Mechanic scoffed at me and proceeded to blame me (proper procedures for
starting the bike must be followed every time). I then talked to the owner who
explained things in a more diplomatic manner after resetting the brain. He
said that surging was inevitable with the bike and I must adjust my riding
style to it. Now, I appreciate his tender approach, however, I have been
riding for 22 years on bikes and never had to adjust my riding to what I
consider a bikes defect. I paid a lot for this bike and expect better quality
out of it. Is it just me, or am I being blamed (hey I try to start the bike
due to their procedure, but sometimes I just forget) for BMW's problems? My
question to everybody, is: - If it worked fine for the first few hundred of
miles, why can't I expect it to work the same for the next number of thousand.
Why should the bike 'settle' into surging? Is there truth in that? What can I
do, apart from going postal, to get my bike back to an enjoyable state of
riding (it is 2002 Dakar, with the latest Injector and software). Shaun (Kiwi
in Atlanta).
The dealer has uploaded a new version of software to your machine. AND that has obviously screwed it :-(. When the dealer plugs in to read any fault codes, they also read the current version in the 'box" if the version is older than what is in the BMW Dealer